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A bit tired of Durianrider lying about the paleo/primal diet...

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  • #31
    Originally posted by Grok View Post
    While chimps are mostly herbivorous, they do eat honey, soil, insects, birds and their eggs and small to medium-sized mammals, including other primates.[22][15]
    Yeah they'll eat a lot of stuff lol

    Apparently though meat (and eggs, etc) are a relatively minor part of their diet, composing something very low like 5%. Again though, they're not really referred to as herbivores they're usually referred to as frugivores, to distinguish their eating habits from that of say a cow or a horse.

    I do sometimes wonder if we are simply frugivores evolving to be more carnivorous (as I may have said), but I am unclear on what stage of his evolutionary process we are at (whether it ever finished, or whether we are in a limbo state. And if the latter, are we closer to frugivores or carnivores, etc etc).

    Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
    This is so stupid. Point 1, meat and a higher fat consumption is what allowed us to evolve into the humans we are today. Our big brains take a lot of fat and calories to run. Point 2, educate yourself. That whole intestinal length myth has been debunked a million times, yet veg*ns love to parade it out. Our guts resemble a cross between meat eater and carnivores, thus, we're omnivores. Next you'll be telling us about how Elvis had five pounds of rotting meat in his guts when he died . . .
    How does our gut resemble a carnivore's?

    And yes it is true that our brains are very energy-hungry. I learned about this when studying anthropology. It's logical that meat aided in brain development due to it being energy-dense. As for the fat content I really don't know. Do our brains benefit from a high fat diet?
    Last edited by hoppimike; 11-11-2011, 11:11 PM.

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    • #32
      'The brain is made up of more than 50 percent fat - up to 70-80 percent of its dry weight. In fact, the body's highest concentration of Omega 3 fatty acids are in the brain:up to one quarter of the human brain's fatty acid stores are DHA; a component of omega 3 fatty acids commonly found in cold-water fish oils and meats exclusively pasture fed animals or wild game. Humans are unique among primates in this regard; the brains of chimps and other primates are dominated by Omega 6 fatty acids.'
      Chapter 25 How Important is Fat to the Brain? Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas.

      The fact that the brain is mostly fat and needs so much fat to function properly was what made the primal/paleo WOE click for me.

      And the fact that vegan eating does not supply all the nutrients you need. Bu it is your choice which you should make after YOU do the research.
      Life. Be in it.

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      • #33
        'The brain is made up of more than 50 percent fat - up to 70-80 percent of its dry weight. In fact, the body's highest concentration of Omega 3 fatty acids are in the brain:up to one quarter of the human brain's fatty acid stores are DHA; a component of omega 3 fatty acids commonly found in cold-water fish oils and meats exclusively pasture fed animals or wild game. Humans are unique among primates in this regard; the brains of chimps and other primates are dominated by Omega 6 fatty acids.'
        Chapter 25 How Important is Fat to the Brain? Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas.

        The fact that the brain is mostly fat and needs so much fat to function properly was what made the primal/paleo WOE click for me.

        And the fact that vegan eating does not supply all the nutrients you need. Bu it is your choice which you should make after YOU do the research.
        Life. Be in it.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by hoppimike View Post
          I do sometimes wonder if we are simply frugivores evolving to be more carnivorous (as I may have said), but I am unclear on what stage of his evolutionary process we are at (whether it ever finished, or whether we are in a limbo state. And if the latter, are we closer to frugivores or carnivores, etc etc).



          How does our gut resemble a carnivore's?

          And yes it is true that our brains are very energy-hungry. I learned about this when studying anthropology. It's logical that meat aided in brain development due to it being energy-dense. As for the fat content I really don't know. Do our brains benefit from a high fat diet?
          Here's a relatively basic overview. Feel free to research the specific points. The Straight Dope: Are humans meat eaters or vegetarians by nature?
          Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by hoppimike View Post
            whoa O.O

            Nice welcome...

            I was trying to stick up for you guys because I thought he did you an injustice, basically, and it annoyed me that someone can get away with it. And that he got loads of support from his (pretty much brainwashed) main follower base for it!

            I'm not trying to "stir" anything, and I apologize if this is considered old garbage around here but I am new so I have no idea what is new and what is old!




            hehe thanks man, glad you found it entertaining

            People are wrong on the internet every day.

            If you let that bother you, and always try to keep people from "getting away with it," you'll never leave your computer, but you'll never change a thing.

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            • #36
              nice read!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Belforte View Post
                'The brain is made up of more than 50 percent fat - up to 70-80 percent of its dry weight. In fact, the body's highest concentration of Omega 3 fatty acids are in the brain:up to one quarter of the human brain's fatty acid stores are DHA; a component of omega 3 fatty acids commonly found in cold-water fish oils and meats exclusively pasture fed animals or wild game. Humans are unique among primates in this regard; the brains of chimps and other primates are dominated by Omega 6 fatty acids.'
                Chapter 25 How Important is Fat to the Brain? Primal Body Primal Mind by Nora Gedgaudas.

                The fact that the brain is mostly fat and needs so much fat to function properly was what made the primal/paleo WOE click for me.

                And the fact that vegan eating does not supply all the nutrients you need. Bu it is your choice which you should make after YOU do the research.
                heh, sorry, I'm the kind of person who prefers to learn by asking questions and looking at results rather than looking through studies (although studies and hard science are of course useful too). And in turn, I enjoy sharing what I've learned with others

                That's fascinating about the Omega 3/6 balance, I didn't know that!

                I still haven't seen an explanation as to why our digestive tracts look so frugivorous though, although to be honest I guess as long as you get plenty of veggies and fruit as well as meat/fish that won't be too much of an issue due to the fibre content.

                As I say though, I find using the little boy's room is way more pleasant when I drop animal products lol

                And Blackcatdope - I understand that Homo sapiens are by nature hunters and gatherers. I understand that we're heavily meat eaters, but this doesn't prove to me that it's necessarily the BEST diet for us, merely that it's just the most natural/immediate for our species. Although these two concepts seem to often have huge overlap, it's not always complete due to the nature of different food sources, evolutionary limitations in the given time period, etc.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by hoppimike View Post
                  I still haven't seen an explanation as to why our digestive tracts look so frugivorous though, although to be honest I guess as long as you get plenty of veggies and fruit as well as meat/fish that won't be too much of an issue due to the fibre content.
                  That's because they don't look frugivorous. The relative intestinal/body ratio is between an herbivore and a carnivore. On top of that we don't have secums or multiple stomachs to aid in the digestion of plant matter. Add to that the fact that a huge number of people can't digest high levels of plant matter and it's pretty obvious. Yes, there are assorted diets that work for different people but there are also numerous other factors at work which allow them to.
                  Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
                    Here's a relatively basic overview. Feel free to research the specific points. The Straight Dope: Are humans meat eaters or vegetarians by nature?
                    Hmm. Interesting. "Cecil" doesn't question the ingrained CW bias that "vegetarianism is healthier" or that we should "eat less red meat", he just points out that it's not our evolutionary default.

                    Now then, with what shall we feed our troll?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
                      That's because they don't look frugivorous. The relative intestinal/body ratio is between an herbivore and a carnivore. On top of that we don't have secums or multiple stomachs to aid in the digestion of plant matter. Add to that the fact that a huge number of people can't digest high levels of plant matter and it's pretty obvious. Yes, there are assorted diets that work for different people but there are also numerous other factors at work which allow them to.

                      No but... there is another classification - a frugivore. Like a chimp - a fruit, greens, nuts, seeds and occasional meat eater. That's what the other apes are to varying degrees. As I say, our capacity to digest greens (cellulose, basically, AFAIK) was probably reduced by cooking as this breaks up the cellulose I believe and makes it easier to digest.

                      When you say we're "between a herbivore and a carnivore" you're basically agreeing with me that it looks like a frugivore lol, because that's what frugivore intestinal tracts look like!

                      Just... if we had evolved sufficiently to be heavy meat eaters... I just think we would have shorter digestive tracts o.O

                      Perhaps I'm missing something, I dunno.

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                      • #41
                        Evolution is ever changing, it doesn't stop - because the world is ever changing. Adapt or die is the rule on this blue marble.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by DarthFriendly View Post
                          Hmm. Interesting. "Cecil" doesn't question the ingrained CW bias that "vegetarianism is healthier" or that we should "eat less red meat", he just points out that it's not our evolutionary default.
                          Yeah, but seeing how troll-boy doesn't like to read actual science I figured this, summing it all up, would be easy enough for him to grasp.

                          Now then, with what shall we feed our troll?
                          A steaming pile of shit? He's probably B-12 deficient and shit is a great source.
                          Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by hoppimike View Post
                            Just... if we had evolved sufficiently to be heavy meat eaters... I just think we would have shorter digestive tracts o.O

                            Perhaps I'm missing something, I dunno.
                            The fact that we evolved to eat cooked meat rather than raw could be the "something" you're missing...
                            Our digestive tracts are a lot shorter than our non-cooking ape cousins. Also, modern humans are only able to survive on raw food because of the fact that high quality nutritious fruit that is made available in abundance by mass farming and supermarkets etc. today. If you were in a survival situation where you had to gather enough fruit to survive, let alone thrive, unless you were lucky enough to find yourself in the middle of a banana plantation you'd be very lucky to be able to survive on just the fruit you could gather for more than a few of months.

                            Some key points about the difference between the size of our digestive tracts and other (non-cooking apes):

                            1. Most human features of the digestive tracts are small in comparison to other apes; We have small mouths, weak jaws, small teeth, small stomachs, small colons, and small guts overall.

                            2. Chimps can open their mouths twice as far as us and to find a primate with as relatively small an aperture at that of humans, you would need to look at the tiniest species, such as a squirrel monkey (which weighs less than 3 pounds). As well our mouths having a small gape, they also have a relatively small volume. About the same size as chimps, even though we weigh some 50% more than they do. Chimps also have huge muscular lips, which means that their mouths can hold much more food than ours. This is important because when eating juicy foods, they use their lips to hold a large wad of food and squeeze it hard against their teeth, which they do over and over again before swallowing. Their strong lips appear to be an adaptation for eating fruits, because fruit bats have similarly large and muscular lips which they use in the same way. We do not.

                            3. Our jaws are much weaker. Our temporalis and masseter muscles are much smaller than other apes, in which they often reach from the jaw to the top of the skull. Ours barely reach halfway up the side of our skull. The muscle fibers in our jaws are also smaller, in fact they are 1/8 the size of a macaques. Our small, weak jaw muscles are not adapted for chewing on lots of tough raw food, but they work well for soft, cooked food.

                            4. Teeth - Our teeth are the smallest of any primat species in relation to body size. The predictable physical changes in food that are associated with cooking acount readily for our weak chewing and small teeth. Even without genetic evolution, animals reared experimentally on soft diets develop smaller jaws and teeth.

                            5. The surface area of our stomach is less than 1/3 the size expected for a typical mammal of our body weight, and smaller than in 97% of other primates. The high caloric density of cooked food suggest that our stomachs can afford to be small. Great apes eat perhaps twice as much by weight per day as we do because their foods are packed with indigestible fiber (approx 30% by weight, compared to 5% - 10% or less in human diets).

                            6. Human small intestine is only a little smaller than expected for the size of our bodies, reflecting that this organ is the main site of digestion and absorption, and humans have th same basal metabolic rate as other primates in relation to body weight. But the large intestine/colon is less than 60% of the mass that would be expected for a frugivore primate of our body weight. The colon is where our intestinal flora ferment plant fiber, producing fatty acids that are absorbed into the body and used for energy. That our colons are relatively small means we cannot retain as much fiber as the great apes can and therefore cannot utilise plant fiber as effectively for food.

                            7. The volume of the entire human gut, comprising of stomach, small intestine, and large intestine, is also relatively small, less than in any other primate measured so far. Our small mouths, teeth and guts fit well with the softness, high caloric density and high digestibility of cooked meat and vegetation. The reduction increases efficiency and saves us from wasting energy on features whose only purpose would be to allow us to digest large amounts of high-fiber food.

                            I know you don't want to read research referred to by others, but someone else may be interested... so, the points I've listed above are made by Richard Wrangham in "Catching fire: How cooking made us human" and the research around the effectiveness of a raw food diet was from the Giessen vegetarian Raw Food Diet study
                            If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

                            Originally posted by tfarny
                            If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
                              Yeah, but seeing how troll-boy doesn't like to read actual science I figured this, summing it all up, would be easy enough for him to grasp.



                              A steaming pile of shit? He's probably B-12 deficient and shit is a great source.
                              lmfa
                              If you're interested in my (very) occasional updates on how I'm working out and what I'm eating click here.

                              Originally posted by tfarny
                              If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Please stop feeding the troll. Harley will NEVER change his mind or his ways, even though his own health is on the line now (see most recent YT vids), so you are only wasting your time and your keystrokes.
                                "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." -- Hippocrates

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