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Paleo-Diet: Not the Way to a Healthy Future?? NPR blog

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  • #46
    What a bunch of scientists. What we eat is far less an issue these days than the global economy. I know that's off topic, but what are you going to do? Sex is the most fun you can have for free! And rape is a brutal part of war. It's all about sex. We aren't anywhere near being as moral, ethical, charitable, or sophisticated as we think we are. All the technology in the world doesn't negate how, ultimately, barbaric and selfish (read self preservation) we are as a species.

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    • #47
      Nobody has brought up Joel Saladin and his thoughts on the sustainability of pasture based farming? Grasses, ruminants, and fowl, y'all! Or for that matter, the work of Wes Jackson with The Land Institute in converting perrenial prarie grasses into viable cereal crops. Not paleo per say, but way more sustainable than annuals....

      You know, I don't really think the evolutionary background is quite so clean as some of the paleo discussion would imply. I do think there is a certain amount of nostalgia going on. I tend to think of most of it really as a metaphor, or maybe a mythology would be a better term. It may be a paleofantasy, but our society has plenty of other fantasies we realize but still use. The fact is it's a WOE that seems to be working for me. Nutritional science seems to back much of it up. But in the end, I think any diet based on whole, fresh, local food will beat out SAD.
      Trying a journal. We'll see how long that lasts....

      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread37152.html

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      • #48
        Originally posted by quelsen View Post
        We are facing a global problem and depeding on the math one of two things will happen, society will crumble under its own weight and mass murders will take care of the population, or nature will reach a breaking point and a famine the likes of which "god himself has never seen" will wipe out 9/10 of everyone now living.
        I think a combination of the above - not necessarily mass murders, but violence as a factor - is more likely.

        Insufficient resources to go around will lead to starvation and suffering... it will also lead to war between countries or groups of people competing for said resources. As to when we reach that point... that's a question I hope neither myself nor my(if I have them) children will discover the answer to.

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        • #49
          Insufficient resources have been the basis of nearly all wars.

          We've been involved in one for the last 10 years.
          Trying a journal. We'll see how long that lasts....

          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread37152.html

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Chaohinon View Post
            It's not fair to claim that paleo is unsustainable, since it's been artificially squeezed out of the market by grain & soy subsidies, propaganda & media manipulation (the Kellogg craze), and a whole lot of cultural inertia.

            And even if it does turn out that a high-meat diet is unsustainable, humans who aren't metabolically deranged can easily live on as much as 60-70% carbohydrate. Sweet potatoes yield 2-4x more calories per acre than grains, with a higher micronutrient, fiber, and complete protein content to boot. The need for cheap carbohydrates can still mesh with paleo, and does not necessitate grains.

            The population problem can be easily, peacefully solved by people simply being more thoughtful and conscious about having kids. The people who are pushing out more children than they can care for are doing so just because that's what's expected of them, or they haven't been educated on contraception use. Pretty much any where you find human populations booming out of control, you'll also find a culture where antiquated family models and cultural mores are held in high esteem.

            From looking at trends in western europe, population slowdown results from cultural liberalization and a decrease in the popularity of organized religion. If that continues, human population should correct itself as more cultures continue to mature and secularize.
            Very good.

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            • #51
              Fascinating reading. Being still a newbie, I knew I could count on you all to shed light on all aspects of the issues. For example, I knew nothing about Joel Saladin or Wes Jackson, so a particular thanks to VeloCity.

              Coincidentally, NPR had another piece about diet on their website today. I will be launching another thread to discuss it.

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              • #52
                Paleo/primal isn't sustainable? The way we CURRENTLY feed the world isn't sustainable. It's dependent on oil to artificially increase yields from the soil in huge mono-crop farming scenarios. Due to the lack of crop and livestock rotation, the soil is left barren...without more oil-based fertilizers it can't grow anything.
                Heather and the hounds - Make a Fast Friend, Adopt a Greyhound!

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                • #53
                  Here is my rebuttal: how on earth does the current methods of agricultural production equate to being more sustainable than paleo? There are many, many costs to consider: energy expended in corn production, transportation....not to mention the energy used up in manufacturing the corn and potatoes that turn into junk food (over half of potatoes consumed in America are NOT consumed fresh...scary!).

                  Oh, and let us look at how our exported excess corn and rice supply completely drive down prices in poorer countries when they flood the marketplace. Farmers are not able to make a living and so resort to unsustainable agricultural methods that are less expensive to invest in than more efficient ones.

                  I am far from a liberal. Infact, I am quite conservative in my politics but this woman's assertion is ridiculous.

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                  • #54
                    You're all missing the point here...

                    When the zombie apocalypse happens the planet will naturally convert to a primal WOE...with an extra emphasis on organ meats.

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                    • #55
                      I have a checkered past, SlimIcy, so I regretfully admit having dallied with survivalist notions toward the end of the 70s (surprise, surprise, there was a nutso boyfriend involved). Same scenario as today: the world is on the verge of economic/environmental collapse, so how are you going to survive the coming apocalypse. Back then, Survivalists tended to think (maybe they still do -- I have no idea if they are still out there) that the way to survive involved having a bunker off in some remote area equipped with machine guns, hunting rifles and shotguns (along with reloading equipment and supplies), a few barrels of silver coins and a stock of gold Krugerands, and a goodly supply of water, water filters and dried and/or canned foods.

                      So, 30-some years later, I still have memories of that mentality and I don't think the world has gotten a whole lot wiser or more sustainable (rather the reverse). But I am a granola-head (now grain-free) left winger, so the whole machine-gun-turret, defend-me-and-mine-against-the-marauding-hordes approach never appealed to me in the least. And I have seen that the System (first world capitalist economy), screwed up as it always seems to be, always seems to find a way to limp along in the long run (although those who are really hurting right now might argue the definition of "limping along").

                      But, I have to say that one of the appealing aspects of going Primal is becoming dependent on more local sources of sustenance. I have long planned to go back to growing my own veggies, so next spring is it: gardens, gardens everywhere. I already compost all refuse from the kitchen and yard, so I am halfway there. I am hunting up new sources of locally produced meat (we have done this in the past, but lost our suppliers). And I am very curious about joining the wild-food hunting classes that a local organization puts together a couple of times a year (being old enough to have owned Euell Gibbons' books and the Foxfire collection).

                      I don't really believe that the apocalypse is coming, but just in case...

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                      • #56
                        Everyone here is forgetting that we'll never reach a massive worldwide famine. A plague brought on by close living quarters and overtaxed immune systems (grains make me more likely to get sick) will kill off three quarters of the human race first.
                        Really, the most likely to survive group of people is going to be us because we're healthier.
                        In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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                        • #57
                          Oh and I hope civilization collapses. That way I can do what my nature dictates and kill people who touch my food. My brother has already learned that any time he eats my bacon it tastes like clenched fist.
                          Last edited by Alex Good; 10-28-2011, 07:52 PM.
                          In all of the universe there is only one person with your exact charateristics. Just like there is only one person with everybody else's characteristics. Effectively, your uniqueness makes you pretty average.

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                          • #58
                            There's no point in having a sustainable food supply when it inevitably leads to chronic illness both in the short term and down the line for the majority. I'm oversimplifying when I say this, but it'd be much better to have, say, 1 billion people thriving off a Primal way of eating and maximising their quality of life as opposed to 7 billion with a significantly large percentage of people who suffer from the deleterious effects of consuming grains and artificial foods / complete starvation across the world. Politics plays a fundamentally massive role here which can't possibly be ignored, but we are overpopulated no matter how you look at it. If everybody somehow made a global vow to only have 1 child per couple, I wonder how that would work out (I haven't researched into this at all, just pondering on idle thoughts..)

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by welcometogoodburger View Post
                              I think sustainability freaks are just as much "blind fanatics" as we are, except they're worse because they're self-righteous. The assumption that we believe 7 billion people can eat and live like this is flat-out insulting.

                              Does anyone know of a Paleo guru who claims the diet is sustainable? I know Mark doesn't.
                              I don't know about the global scale, but I'm definitely a "sustainability freak" and I'm perfectly happy with the sustainability of homestead-style farming and primal-style eating. I think a lot of modern homesteaders would be surprised at the notion that it's either self-righteous or unsustainable to eat grain-free and be low-impact.
                              “Falconry is not a hobby or an amusement; it is a rage. You eat and drink it, sleep it and think it. You tremble to write of it, even in recollection. It is as King James the First remarked, an extreme stirrer up of passions.” --T.H. White, The Godstone and the Blackymor

                              "The world must be all fucked up when men travel first class and literature goes as freight."
                              - Gabriel Garcia Marquez, One Hundred Years of Solitude

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