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Just paid a visit to veganland. Yikes!

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  • Just paid a visit to veganland. Yikes!

    I just poked my head into the vegan forums where I used to hang out a lot pre-PB and I must say, I was simply floored at what I saw. Even though I used to read those forums all the time, I honestly couldn't believe how bad it was over there. I don't blame those of them who are eating the best they know how based on the knowledge they currently have, because I've been there too. Many of them are even thriving on it, and that's great! What shocks and saddens me is the closed-minded, self-righteous attitude that is so prevalent among the majority of people posting there. In particular, there was one thread (which I only read a small portion of) in which they were "discussing" (read "bashing") this blog post written by a former, self described "vegangelical." In this post she describes her difficult journey of giving up the vegan lifestyle in order to regain her physical and mental health. The responses from the vegan community absolutely made me sick, with most of them being along the lines of "if you feel ill as a vegan, you're just not doing it right." Sheesh. What selfish, condescending, narrow-minded thinking!

    So, after taking a look at those forums for the first time in months, I just wanted to say a huge THANK YOU to this community. No person, or forum is perfect, but I usually find the members here at MDA to be very courtious, respectful, open-minded, and supportive. Every once in a while I will start to get a sense of a bit of the self-righteous diet-advocate attitude, but that's pretty rare and nothing compared to what I just saw. Now I realize that all I have to do is take a quick look at the vegan community to appreciate what a great one this is.

    Ok, I'm done blowing off the steam now.
    We must learn to do what the leaf and the whale and the wind do of their own nature. We must learn to keep the balance. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice, we must not act without responsibility
    -Sparrowhawk, The Farthest Shore by Ursula K. LeGuin

  • #2
    Welcome back to the sane side.

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    • #3
      Funny.

      I was reading one the other day too. It's remarkable.

      They start out with the rule that eating vegan is moral and right, and everything about diet flows down from there.

      I just posted in this one that at the 30,000 ft level, food is about 3 things-fat, carbs, and protein. From there, you want to know how much of each, which are good and bad, and when to eat them. There is no requirement that your three things are vegan, and in fact, to get the right balance from veggies is nearly impossible.

      They thought that this was just crazy thinking.

      Then they started writing n=1 stories about how they cured all their ills when they switched to being vegan.

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      • #4
        One thing I noticed on vegan boards (I say this as someone who as vegan > 3 yrs) was 1) the assumption that everyone was a leftist; 2) the assumption that everyone was young - unless you were on something like Hallelujah Acres, and 3) the rudeness to each other if one wasn't vegan enough or to nonvegans who politely questioned what veganism was about. I've seen some nasty, age-ist comments from folks were were supposed to be about love, non-violence, and inclusion.

        I suppose this is being silly, but I consider myself still an ethical vegan - no leather goods, no fur, etc. Can one be a meat-eating vegan? : ) Is there another name for someone with these beliefs? If I could have had the success with my diabetes that some vegans have had, I would still be vegan, but I cannot eat all those friggin' carbs and keep my blood sugar under control. Too bad. I really don't want to eat animals. I can't even just eat fish because I don't like fish. I guess it's steak again...

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        • #5
          Della, don't try to name things. That's how people become dogmatic. Sounds like those vegans have a lot in common with many religious folk.

          What you are is a human who is trying their best to live an ethical life, with all the compromises that entails to stay sane and healthy.

          I assume you've already read the discussions about things like grain being a monoculture and the ecological disaster area that entails.

          Avoiding animal products as much as possible, trying to avoid waste and using ethical sources where possible - you are totally on the right path.

          I find it frustrating too - I sympathize with animal welfare and admire many activists, but their hardline beliefs tend to drive me away - I appreciate that we need a few 'shock troopers' but I wonder if they realize how much they alienate people.

          I was reading an article the other day about fanboyism in gaming. I'm seeing its relevance constantly ever since. The writer commented that people make their decision early and spend the rest of their time defending that decision. Nobody likes to be wrong.

          One great thing about MDA is that since coming here I've learned to question everything - including paleo ideas - and am far more willing to be wrong, especially when there is good science to demonstrate why.
          If we’re not supposed to eat animals, how come they’re made out of meat? Tom Snyder

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          • #6
            Originally posted by geekgrrl View Post
            ..Sounds like those vegans have a lot in common with many religious folk...

            ..
            This is what it is. They have faith that eating animals is wrong, and that comes before nutrition science.

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            • #7
              I believe animals should be treated humanely, but as far as fur and leather shoes go, why just eat the choice bits and throw the rest away? No reason, in my mind, to be unwilling to wear leather. Unless, of course, it's skintight leather pants.....
              Newcomers: If you haven't read the book, at least read this thread ... and all the links!
              http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread17722.html

              F/49/5'4"
              Jan. 1, 2011: 186.6 lbs PBSW Mar. 1, 2011: 175.8 lbs
              CW: 146.8 lbs
              GW 140 lbs
              A proud member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

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              • #8
                I had an advisor who was 'vegan' but wouldn't shy away from a nice cake or pastry. When we'd suggest that the eggs and butter in the cake weren't vegan, she'd reply, "Well, it's not a religion." : )

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Dellastreet View Post
                  I suppose this is being silly, but I consider myself still an ethical vegan - no leather goods, no fur, etc. Can one be a meat-eating vegan? : ) Is there another name for someone with these beliefs? If I could have had the success with my diabetes that some vegans have had, I would still be vegan, but I cannot eat all those friggin' carbs and keep my blood sugar under control. Too bad. I really don't want to eat animals. I can't even just eat fish because I don't like fish. I guess it's steak again...
                  I understand where you're coming from. I went vegan for health reasons (hey, it made sense at the time), and health was what brought me back to eating animal products. Still, I was, and still am concerned about animal wellfare. I believe that most, if not all, people need animal foods for ideal health, but that doesn't mean that animals should be exploited, abused, neglected, or wasted to that end. Ethical vegans, naturally, think I'm a hypocrite, but to me it makes perfect sense.
                  We must learn to do what the leaf and the whale and the wind do of their own nature. We must learn to keep the balance. Having intelligence, we must not act in ignorance. Having choice, we must not act without responsibility
                  -Sparrowhawk, The Farthest Shore by Ursula K. LeGuin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    The fat vegans remind me of that saying; "Vegans don't eat meat, but they eat everything else!"
                    52 year old Male
                    Goal: 185lbs
                    April 10th: 220lbs

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                    • #11
                      +1 to all
                      Ancestral Health Info

                      I design websites and blogs for a living. If you would like a blog or website designed by someone who understands Primal, see my web page.

                      Primal Blueprint Explorer My blog for people who are not into the Grok thing. Since starting the blog, I have moved close to being Archevore instead of Primal. But Mark's Daily Apple is still the best source of information about living an ancestral lifestyle.

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                      • #12
                        My best friend is vegan. Discussing food with her leaves me wanting to hit her upside the head with a steak. She has tons of health issues, her husband broke a leg walking (yup, bones are that weak) and her kids are overweight (a lot). Just hoping that one day she sees the difference and maybe gives it up.
                        Apryl

                        22lbs lost since giving up grains!

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by belinda View Post
                          I believe animals should be treated humanely, but as far as fur and leather shoes go, why just eat the choice bits and throw the rest away? No reason, in my mind, to be unwilling to wear leather. Unless, of course, it's skintight leather pants.....
                          What are you talking about? It sounds like you're using your own argument against yourself - the fur and skin are part of the animal, so why not make use of it unless you are trying to distance yourself from the dead animal?

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