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  • #31
    Hi ZoeBird,

    Thanks for writing! Yes, of course I have heard of the glycemic index. I have been devouring health and nutrition books for about 15 years now, so I have been exposed to everything you reference. High protein/high fat is not at all mainstream, however, so when you start reading about nutrition, most of what you're going to read is the opposite: high carb/low fat.

    What motivated you to get off of veganism, and did you switch from vegan to primal? If so, did you have trouble transitioning? Did you go through the carb flu that Griff references?

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    • #32
      Hi Dragonfly,

      I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Zoe:

      What motivated you to get off of veganism/vegetarianism, and did you switch from vegan to primal? If so, did you have trouble transitioning? Did you go through the carb flu that Griff references?

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
        Actually, a lot of have a very good idea! Lots of former vegetarians/vegans here.
        Not to mention the tr*lls from those sites who occasionally plague us over the weekends...

        This is the topic of my dissertation - people who believe things despite evidence to the contrary, or no supporting evidence. It's both fascinating and sad.
        Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

        Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


        Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

        My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

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        • #34
          Okay, here's an example (I can't resist):

          I have a dear friend who is a high raw/high fruit, very hardcore vegan. She and I bonded when our diets were much the same. She runs a very successful raw food/low fat vegan website. Over the last year, she and I have gone back and forth numerous times over frustration about weight gain (both of us have been carrying around an extra 20 pounds that our high fruit diets weren't helping to lose. She particularly has been annoyed about this and has tried everything but cutting out carbs to deal with it).

          So, three days ago she posted on her Facebook page a link to a Youtube video some raw foodist made, a rail-thin young guy, who rants in the video that fruit doesn't make you gain weight while he's drinking a huge banana smoothie.

          I was extremely surprised she promoted this video, knowing all the back-and-forth we've had over her frustration over her own weight gain. So I emailed her privately and told her, um, fruit HAS made me gain weight, and it made you gain weight, too, remember all those conversations we've had? Why are you promoting a message to your readers that you know from personal experience isn't true? I said this very gently.

          I of course received an insanely long email in response, and it was the most wonderful example of cognitive dissonance and "clinging to the belief system" I have ever seen. She stated outright several times that it wasn't fruit that made her gain weight, not at all. It was her being "upstream" with her beliefs (something about the law of attraction, and her negative thinking was attracting the extra weight).

          Now, she says, she's totally "downstream" and will be posting pictures of herself in a bikini on her website very soon. However, I saw a picture of her from about 3 weeks ago, and while she is a lovely woman (a former model), she is definitely still carrying around that extra weight. So I don't know what the heck she's talking about and haven't replied to her email yet, because honestly it gave me chills. It ended with admonishing me to "eat more carbs" and that fruit is the last thing I should be focusing negative attention on in my diet.

          Boy oh boy. She is one of those people who believes that the vegan diet is going to save the world and that it's the appropriate diet for every human, and eventually we'll all see the light.

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          • #35
            Have you read this?

            Amazon.com: The Vegetarian Myth: Food, Justice, and Sustainability (9781604860801): Lierre Keith: Books

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            • #36
              Aktres, funny you should ask.

              I just got through really truly reading The Vegetarian Myth (it's been kicking around on my book shelf for months, and I'd skimmed through it but never really taken the time to absorb its message). Finally I picked it up one day, started reading, and could barely put it down. It was so amazing it interfered with my sleep for several nights! I am now counting it among the top 5 health books I've ever read. I just loaned my copy to a friend. Simply wonderful!

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              • #37
                This is the next book I plan to read:

                Amazon.com: Deep Nutrition: Why Your Genes Need Traditional Food (9780615228389): Catherine Shanahan, Luke Shanahan: Books

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                • #38
                  Griff, would love to read your dissertation! The type of thinking we are discussing is a hallmark of cults and is powerful stuff. It's so obvious to me now why veganism is often referred to as cultlike. The enforcing of groupthink and conformity on 30 Bananas a Day was disturbing to me. Anyone who came forward with health issues was bullied and/or banned.

                  I've been reading about the lack of saturated fat in the diet leading to mental imbalance (I always think of 30 Bananas a Day crowd when I read that. I can't help it!).

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                  • #39
                    Aktes, thank you! I am a HUGE reader and am always looking for new book recommendations. Do you have any other suggestions? I'm just now cracking open Good Calories, Bad Calories (I actually read his new book, Why We Get Fat first).

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                    • #40
                      Some blogs for you:

                      Evolutionary Psychiatry

                      Archevore - Archevore Blog

                      http://www.trackyourplaque.com/blog/

                      The Blog of Michael R. Eades, M.D.

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Griff View Post
                        This is the topic of my dissertation - people who believe things despite evidence to the contrary, or no supporting evidence. It's both fascinating and sad.
                        Griff, that's fascinating! Are you focusing on any specific culture/belief system?
                        My food blog, with many PB-friendly recipes

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Fruitlover View Post
                          Hi Dragonfly,

                          I'm going to ask you the same question I asked Zoe:

                          What motivated you to get off of veganism/vegetarianism, and did you switch from vegan to primal? If so, did you have trouble transitioning? Did you go through the carb flu that Griff references?
                          I switched from being a vegetarian (14 yrs) in 1996. I was very sick with allergies and my intuition told me I needed to eat meat. Not a huge transition for me to Primal, as I'd been eating a WAP-style diet for over a year prior. I didn't experience carb flu until I dropped my carbs below 50 gm/day--and then it was really only a day or two of feeling crappy.
                          Last edited by Dragonfly; 05-12-2011, 07:03 PM.
                          Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
                          Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
                          Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

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                          • #43
                            I left veganism because I concluded that the diet itself must be highly inflammatory. I was vegan, and high-raw at that, when I was diagnosed with Crohn's disease. I had an ulcerated ileum (the area making up the very end of the small intestine). Within 10 months I was diagnosed with diabetes--another autoimmune condition. I am now insulin dependent for life. So it made sense that a vegan diet was not a disease preventative diet, and that it no longer was a good fit for me (low carb obviously being a better choice for blood glucose control).

                            Also, there have been studies done on rats (or mice, I think) fed a mostly fruit diet. They were autopsied and found to have the fatty livers of alcoholics. Fructose is broken down by the liver only. A high fructose diet is lower glycemic because the sugar is not broken down in the stomach and small intestine the way other sugars are, but must be processed by the liver. But they are eventually broken down, and have the same eventual impact on your blood sugar, with the added bonus of working your liver over time. You wouldn't drink high fructose corn syrup, would you? Then why would you overeat high fructose fruits? Fructose is fructose, it doesn't matter what the source.
                            Type 1 Diabetic. Controlling blood sugar through primal life.

                            2012 Goals:
                            Maintain A1c of 6.0 or lower
                            More dietary fat, less carbs, moderate protein
                            LHT and sprint as per PB fitness
                            Play more!

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                            • #44
                              Another former vegetarian, here. I was actually a lacto-vegetarian in principle, which just meant I had cream in my coffee when I drank it about once a month. I originally went vegetarian in an effort to lose weight, but a funny thing happened.

                              I was in a serious car accident, was comatose for a couple weeks and broke many bones. When I gained full consciousness (meaning I was fully awake; my head was still pretty foggy, though), I had been about 6 weeks without solid food. My BF at the time, didn't think to mention my eating choices to the hospital, because, well, eating wasn't really an issue for awhile, lol. My doctors prescribed a diet to help me regain my strength, heal my bones. Think lots of milk, eggs and meat, along loads of spinach and nutrient-dense veggies. I'd just been in a coma, so my thinking wasn't all that clear, and I just ate what they served me.

                              My BF went ape-s*** when he realized what I'd been eating, had them change my diet to fully vegan. I complained, even though he'd explained to me what our eating habits had been like, and I got my protein back. I'm not sure, but I think that my turning to steak was another nail in the coffin of our relationship. Now that I've fully recovered, I have most of my memories back, and I totally remember being a self-righteous vegetarian to lose weight. I went from 125# to 145# during that time, though I lost all of that while comatose, so it worked out. Except for having to pay a $10,000 copay for my hospital stay, but never mind the details.

                              I don't remember going through any of the issues you're dealing with, probably didn't with the medical issues and all, but I've been there as far as being totally convinced that I was feeding myself correctly. And I understand about loving fruit so much. I so understand that part of it! Have you thought about replacing your fruit snacks with veggies like carrots, broccoli, nuts, etc., where you still get a little bit of a carb fix, maybe just enough to take the edge off? And pair the lower carb veggie with a boiled egg or something with a decent amount of fat and protein, to keep your blood levels stable?

                              I wonder if part of your trouble is psychological, too? I can see you've come to the conclusion that you need protein and fat on an intellectual level, but maybe you need to come to grips with that on an emotional level, too? It's not as simple as saying to yourself, "Okay, I'm going to eat totally different food than what I've been used to now." If that were the case, I could have stuck with the billion low fat diets I've started in my lifetime. Going primal is an easy transition if you only have to change a couple things, but you're doing a complete 180.
                              Your book club may have scintillating discussions. But my book club can drink your book club under the table.

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                              • #45
                                What motivated you to get off of veganism? What motivated you to get off of veganism, and did you switch from vegan to primal? If so, did you have trouble transitioning? Did you go through the carb flu that Griff references?

                                I went vegan 3 months after going vegetarian. I remained vegan for 5 years. This was strictly vegan -- no fish, no eggs, you name it. The strictest definition (the way you are defining it -- having fish occasionally, etc, is not the veganism I practiced). After that, my cholesterol got too low, and i started to ahve secondary symptoms. I chose to eat eggs and dairy.

                                I was a whole foods vegan -- mostly raw, mostly fruits and veggies, grains and beans each day, but not much. i didn't do well on starchy stuff. makes me feel lethargic.

                                So, i went back to ovo-lacto vegetarian -- still no meat. Did this for 5 more years. Moved to NZ.

                                In NZ, i was eating a lot of rice-cheese-veggies and bread-eggs-veggies as my meals, plus some fruit. I was healthy and happy with my body, weight, health, etc -- but Dh was having serious reactions to grains. and, I was hungry all the time. So, i started to look around for an integrated way of eating (DH always was an omnivore, btw), that would work well for our family.

                                I stumbled upon paleo -- which made a lot of sense to me -- and we took the plunge in Nov.

                                I didn't notice that I had the carb flu. I also didn't have the *super amazing energy more than I've ever had before!* thing that people talk about (i didn't have it with veganism, or raw foods, or whatever else either). I would say I have good energy overall. It wasn't a concern for me.

                                i had no trouble transitioning, and i immediately noticed changes in my body composition. In a few weeks, i lost an inch off my waist and a few percentages of body fat.

                                now i'm about 19% body fat (possibly 18-20), and have a 26 inch waist. I'm quite happy with my health and measurements. DH's grain-and-skin conditions cleared up within a month or two, and everyone is happy and healthy.

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