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  • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
    It's just that today's men have been so feminized that you have to exaggerate to make a point sometimes, and then dumb people take it out of context and out of proportion.
    But it isn't women doing this. It's the loss of manufacturing jobs, the loss of trades, the cheap imports from China that make it easier to run to Walmart to buy crap as opposed to making things yourself or paying a craftsman for quality. It's the population growth that turns what used to be hunting grounds into subdivisions. It's the farm subsidies that make it more expensive to raise your own livestock than to just run to the supermarket and buy meat and eggs. The avenues for men to express their masculinity are disappearing. There's nothing satisfying about sitting behind a desk all day, being degraded by your boss, being made to wear a suit and tie. Sure, being able to support your family is a good feeling, but falling wages and longer work hours aren't because women are taking all the jobs. It's because so many jobs are being shipped overseas. Women have always worked except for a brief period last century when a false image of femininity was created and a false dichotomy of male vs. female was created.
    Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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    • alpha male (as Rivvin mentioned):


      Originally posted by Rivvin View Post
      Regarding "Nice Guy" stuff and Alpha Male stuff

      I am a big believer in having the "Alpha Attitude", but I think it gets skewed quite a bit. Women, you wouldn't know this, but guys are constantly bombarded with images and notions that the Alpha attributes are killing society. Wars? Alpha Males. Political Problems? Alpha Males. Etc. and Etc.

      We see TV shows all the time like King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, Are We There Yet, etc where the men are huge pussies and assert no dominance whatsoever. Yes, they are comedy shows, but they still continued to propagate that imagery. Look at the show "How I Met Your Mother". It's hilarious, but the guys are doorstops except for one guy, Barney (<3 NPH). It's awesome that they show this "Alpha Male" in the show, but it also sucks that they skew image to be funny because it's "wrong" to be like he is.

      On top of this we have radio shows, pundits, talk shows hosts, and whatever else out there like Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz contributing to the further feminization of men and I think if this trend continues we are going to see one of the most fucked up generation of men any of us have ever seen.

      Nice guys get labeled as pussies, Alpha men get labeled as assholes, and basically no one wins. I do my best to be an Alpha Male by doing the following:
      1. Respecting women and all that they do in regards to raising a family, etc
      2. Make decisive decisions and stand behind them
      3. Support myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability
      4. Be honest and have great integrity
      5. Keep my mouth shut (no gossip, no rumormongering, etc)

      I know this post doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the entire issue is pretty nebulous. I think that Alpha Males are labeled as "problems", but if you look at the attributes I've listed above there is nothing there that lends itself to the negative image the status of "Alpha" male currently implies.

      I will step off my soapbox now.
      I think those are great qualities to strive for. But 'alpha' gets a bad rap when the man-o-sphere takes it to mean 'disrespect and pump and dump' as many women as possible, and is pretty anti-marriage and anti-family. I think what you're saying is more of a traditional alpha, whereas the above linked blogs are more the 'pick-up artist' type alpha.
      Last edited by spakesneaker; 05-09-2011, 08:26 AM.

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      • Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
        But it isn't women doing this. It's the loss of manufacturing jobs, the loss of trades, the cheap imports from China that make it easier to run to Walmart to buy crap as opposed to making things yourself or paying a craftsman for quality. It's the population growth that turns what used to be hunting grounds into subdivisions. It's the farm subsidies that make it more expensive to raise your own livestock than to just run to the supermarket and buy meat and eggs. The avenues for men to express their masculinity are disappearing. There's nothing satisfying about sitting behind a desk all day, being degraded by your boss, being made to wear a suit and tie. Sure, being able to support your family is a good feeling, but falling wages and longer work hours aren't because women are taking all the jobs. It's because so many jobs are being shipped overseas. Women have always worked except for a brief period last century when a false image of femininity was created and a false dichotomy of male vs. female was created.
        I never blamed the women for the feminzation, plenty of men are to blame for it, along with some women.
        Lifting Journal

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        • Originally posted by New Renaissance View Post
          Does that mean you aren't going to show your boobs anymore?
          Dear God, NOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!

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          • Originally posted by Rosegin View Post
            Men are not "emotionally stable" they are emotionally suppressed because someone, somewhere along the way told them that crying was "gay".

            The description of men you provided is a modern one. If we're speaking in the primal sense, Grok and Grokette would have taken on equal roles in regards to providing and protecting.
            What's wrong with crying? Who cares if someone thinks you are gay?
            Lifting Journal

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            • I have been a doormat and not assertive about my own wants. This makes me resentful. Also I tend to be an intervert since I don't always relate to others well. Unless they think like me.

              @New Renaissance- This has been one of the best ideas running through this entire thread an you want it to end for some reason. This thread was drying up content and interest wise and this topic gave it a much needed boost.

              @Rosegin- I don't think Grok and Grokette would take equal roles, since Grok was physically stronger and faster than Grokette at least upper body wise. He was also wired for hunting and tracking. Grokette probably did help a lot but if she had a child, she would be far better at raising him than the male. Both of there goals was to survive so they would do whatever they were best at, in a complimentary fashion. To me it seems like a lot of women are far better at handling multiple tasks but not as good at single sustained focus on a single task. The male is the reverse, and they can compliment one and other quite well. I could be wrong about this, since I have not seen Grok and Grokkette in action.
              My journal where I attempt to overcome Chrohns and make good food as well

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              • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                I never blamed the women for the feminzation, plenty of men are to blame for it, along with some women.
                I'm sorry if I implied that you're were blaming women. I tend to find a comment and use that as a jumping off point to make a point but forget to use qualifiers. Although I don't like the term "feminization", as it implies something inherently wrong with being female. I think "neutered" would be more appropriate, as it doesn't imply "icky female". I think the problem is that we are in an age where men and women aren't being forced into roles that were handed down for millenia. Everyone's trying to define what it means to be men or women, or trying to dismantle the definitions, or come up with their own definitions in the face of societal pressures and an economy that tries to use those definitions as a distraction. I say this as a flaming feminist who's totally hot for her boyfriend who builds stuff, is manly and uses power tools and makes her feel safe. And I tell him this.

                * And I don't think that men who cry are gay. If my boyfriend feels the need to cry then he does. He has every right to his emotions.
                Last edited by Blackcatbone; 05-09-2011, 08:44 AM. Reason: *Added
                Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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                • Originally posted by Grumpy Caveman View Post
                  Keep in mind that gradually over the past 30 years or so the masculine spirit has been suppressed while the feminine has been uplifted and given preference in most of Western society. That has led to a lot of frustrated men, alpha or otherwise. Unvented anger can make a person incredibly bitter. These gaming blogs are great places for men to vent that anger.
                  i agree with you. however, venting is venting and should be called venting, not "advice." calling one's wife a "rapidly deteriorating pussy" has no place in a discussion about improving relationships or assertiveness.
                  Realize that we've had maybe 15,000 years to come up with either a woman-dominant society or a society where men and women are "equal." They may have popped up in the past but are they still around? There is a reason they're not around. Like it or lump it, male-dominated society is the one that has withstood the test of time.
                  In my opinion, most western countries are becoming pretty equal with regard to gender roles.
                  Now, I could paint the most beautiful pictures of women or write the most flowery and heart-stirring poetry about how lovely they are and mean it, but I still hate women half the time. I hate their silliness and how they always make the whole world into their own personal drama with themselves cast as the lead tragic heroine. I hate their shit-tests that they don't even realize they're giving.

                  I love women, but holy crap you piss me off sometimes
                  it goes both ways.
                  Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                  The alpha male thing is too subtle to be discussed productively on the internet. I will say that when I stopped being "too nice" for lack of a better world, I got a lot happier, and so did the women in my life. The alpha male thing is hardly a myth, but it makes both sides happier, not one at the expense of the other.
                  if being an "alpha male" means that you are confident in your decisions and refuse to be lead around by the nose, then i think that's great. TAKE A LOOK AT THE COMMENTS in the first post that kenn linked. that's not confidence, that's misogyny.
                  Originally posted by Grumpy Caveman View Post
                  And this thread didn't take a turn for the worse. This thread is precisely the place for this kind of discussion. We can be lovey-dovey and tiptoe around each other's feelings in all the other threads.
                  +1
                  Originally posted by New Renaissance View Post
                  Does that mean you aren't going to show your boobs anymore?
                  lol
                  Originally posted by iniQuity View Post
                  Iím seeing a lot of dudes that just havenít met the right girl. I must be ridiculously lucky, somehow I managed to find a non-materialistic, substance-having, purpose-driven female with whom to spend time with. I guess thereís always a chance sheíll flip into bitch-mode, but I donít see it in her nature.

                  I have always been a ďnice guyĒ I just donít see the point in being otherwise, this ďfuck me and leaveĒ attitude that a lot of guys want to carry around is so empty. I never wanted that for myself, as much as I wanted to have sex with tons of girls I couldnít bring myself to perform the physical act lacking SOME type of emotional connection. Out of all the sexual partners Iíve had (not many) I was only ever with one girl whom I really didnít know, the rest have all been friends/girlfriends and I like it that way. It didnít always end well, because they wanted more out of it than I did, but I still wasnít just trying to give them the dick and the door. I was respectful in conveying my intentions and all was understood (though there were some instances where the girls would try to change me or later told me they hoped I would come around and want to date them, didnít happen, I figure thatís their fault after I had been honest with them) but I at least wasnít a jerk or led them on, or lied to them.

                  Thereís nothing wrong with being nice, provided you donít become a pushover, or an emotional tampon for those girls you secretly want to bone. I never fell into that, at least not after leaving high school and learning from a bad experience in which I definitely was a girlís emotional tampon thinking that it would get me in, thatís a dead end for sure, but I learned from it.

                  I just donít agree with males needing to be assholes in order to get girls, one night stands maybe, but not quality girls.
                  +1
                  i do think that a lot of nice guys get stepped on by bitches. at the same time, a lot of nice girls get hurt too (by both guys and girls). nice people usually have it rough in life. the lucky ones don't.
                  my primal journal:
                  http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                  • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                    Most of the alpha-male stuff on the internet is BS, or is an hyperbolic example. You never need to be rude to be an alpha, being rude diminishes your status. It's just that today's men have been so feminized that you have to exaggerate to make a point sometimes, and then dumb people take it out of context and out of proportion. Most "straight" women out there are so brainwashed that they are basically lesbians(not a criticism of gay people)- wanting a "male" with a feminine appearance and personality. Real alphas are just men, it's just that the word man has lost all meaning these days.
                    here's the link that kenn originally posted. look at the comments and tell me again that i'm overreacting, there's no misogyny there. that's how you want your sisters and daughters talked about.
                    Originally posted by New Renaissance View Post
                    There is a difference between chivalry and subservience. Do you like to have the upper hand, or do you like respect? A confident assertive individual takes their significant other into consideration when making decisions about their actions. A lot of "nice guys" are just emotional tampons (i like that term. hilarious!) for women to get their emotive fix, but ultimately need the challenge of someone who doesn't put up with their shit. Working relationships strike a balance where both partners compliment each other's good qualities.
                    +1
                    Originally posted by Rivvin View Post
                    Regarding "Nice Guy" stuff and Alpha Male stuff

                    I am a big believer in having the "Alpha Attitude", but I think it gets skewed quite a bit. Women, you wouldn't know this, but guys are constantly bombarded with images and notions that the Alpha attributes are killing society. Wars? Alpha Males. Political Problems? Alpha Males. Etc. and Etc.

                    We see TV shows all the time like King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, Are We There Yet, etc where the men are huge pussies and assert no dominance whatsoever. Yes, they are comedy shows, but they still continued to propagate that imagery. Look at the show "How I Met Your Mother". It's hilarious, but the guys are doorstops except for one guy, Barney (<3 NPH). It's awesome that they show this "Alpha Male" in the show, but it also sucks that they skew image to be funny because it's "wrong" to be like he is.
                    i DO know that, i do notice it, and when my kids see it, i tell them exactly what i think of that. it's really everywhere.
                    does anyone remember that post, maybe it was ages ago, which had outdated, sexist commercials from the 50s-70s? i hate to use metaphors, but the pendulum is swinging to the left, and then to the right. we were condescending toward women, and now we're condescending toward men. instead of pushing the pendulum to the left again, why don't we help it settle in the middle?


                    Nice guys get labeled as pussies, Alpha men get labeled as assholes, and basically no one wins. I do my best to be an Alpha Male by doing the following:
                    1. Respecting women and all that they do in regards to raising a family, etc
                    2. Make decisive decisions and stand behind them
                    3. Support myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability
                    4. Be honest and have great integrity
                    5. Keep my mouth shut (no gossip, no rumormongering, etc)

                    I know this post doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the entire issue is pretty nebulous. I think that Alpha Males are labeled as "problems", but if you look at the attributes I've listed above there is nothing there that lends itself to the negative image the status of "Alpha" male currently implies.

                    I will step off my soapbox now.
                    i agree. what i don't like is misogyny. there is a huge difference between a man expecting that others treat him with respect, and a man who is misogynist. did you look at the comments?? let me quote a few gems here for you"
                    This reminds me of the War of the Roses episode on the guy who got his ex’s number at his high school reunion.

                    Current GF: Why did you get her number?
                    Alpha: Did you see the way she took care of her self? Holy shit. She is packing a killer ass.

                    Nothing like checking out other girls and complimenting them to destroy your girl’s self esteem.
                    I don't know if this one is sarcasm or not:
                    Dave from Hawaii needs to game and fuck chicks other than his wife. Fucking different vagina makes a man radiate a testosterone/alpha glow that simply “gaming” one’s wife does not. Dave’s wife will love him more for it and her ‘gina will tingle.
                    Years into my marriage, I just came out and told my wife that I’d be porking other chicks on occasion. It turns out that she had assumed I had already been doing so. She’s not exactly in love with the idea, but she knows I’m gonna do it anyhow, and is only afraid that I’ll actually fall in love with another (younger) woman. The brutal honesty makes the marriage stronger, and the sex hotter.
                    how many years?
                    I guess its different when you’re actually married, i.e. you ain’t gonna dump her easily. But in a normal LTR they just freak out. I got one actually attempting suicide.
                    I just slapped the shit out of her and fucked the other girl anyway though. She eventually stopped asking after that.
                    Alpha husband = oxymoron.

                    Married men are nothing more than wimps in beta serfdom.

                    Sure you may pass your wife’s shit tests with flying colors. You may not be a doormat. So what? That’s nothing to brag about. You’re still stuck with one (rapidly deteriorating) pussy that you cannot discard without dire consequences to yourself.

                    If you were a true alpha, you would not have married in the first place. You would not have proposed, signed the contract or let her live with you under the same roof.
                    I've only looked at the comments in the top 1/10th of the page. do you see my point? again, do you want your sisters, daughters, mothers being talked about like that?
                    my primal journal:
                    http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                    • Originally posted by Blackcatbone View Post
                      I'm sorry if I implied that you're were blaming women. I tend to find a comment and use that as a jumping off point to make a point but forget to use qualifiers. Although I don't like the term "feminization", as it implies something inherently wrong with being female. I think "neutered" would be more appropriate, as it doesn't imply "icky female". I think the problem is that we are in an age where men and women aren't being forced into roles that were handed down for millenia. Everyone's trying to define what it means to be men or women, or trying to dismantle the definitions, or come up with their own definitions in the face of societal pressures and an economy that tries to use those definitions as a distraction. I say this as a flaming feminist who's totally hot for her boyfriend who builds stuff, is manly and uses power tools and makes her feel safe. And I tell him this.
                      I think that's a fair criticism, though I also don't mean to imply that being feminine is wrong, it's not. If that's what you want to be, that's your right, whatever your sex. Just don't use the fact that the median of gender identity has shifted to the feminine as an excuse to try to keep me from living my own life.
                      Lifting Journal

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                      • Originally posted by Saoirse View Post
                        here's the link that kenn originally posted. look at the comments and tell me again that i'm overreacting, there's no misogyny there. that's how you want your sisters and daughters talked about.

                        +1

                        i DO know that, i do notice it, and when my kids see it, i tell them exactly what i think of that. it's really everywhere.
                        does anyone remember that post, maybe it was ages ago, which had outdated, sexist commercials from the 50s-70s? i hate to use metaphors, but the pendulum is swinging to the left, and then to the right. we were condescending toward women, and now we're condescending toward men. instead of pushing the pendulum to the left again, why don't we help it settle in the middle?




                        i agree. what i don't like is misogyny. there is a huge difference between a man expecting that others treat him with respect, and a man who is misogynist. did you look at the comments?? let me quote a few gems here for you"


                        I don't know if this one is sarcasm or not:








                        I've only looked at the comments in the top 1/10th of the page. do you see my point? again, do you want your sisters, daughters, mothers being talked about like that?
                        Originally Posted by Apex Predator View Post
                        Most of the alpha-male stuff on the internet is BS,

                        I didn't even bother looking at what he posted, I know the genre and most of it is garbage.
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                        • well that's what we're discussing.

                          i think it's interesting that the author stopped to post snarky "editor's notes" whenever someone posted a comment in defense of women, but didn't stop to correct the misogyny.
                          my primal journal:
                          http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...Primal-Journal

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                          • I thought we were discussing the broader topic of "alpha males". If all we are talking about is one silly link, I have a lot less interest.
                            Lifting Journal

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Rivvin View Post
                              Regarding "Nice Guy" stuff and Alpha Male stuff

                              I am a big believer in having the "Alpha Attitude", but I think it gets skewed quite a bit. Women, you wouldn't know this, but guys are constantly bombarded with images and notions that the Alpha attributes are killing society. Wars? Alpha Males. Political Problems? Alpha Males. Etc. and Etc.

                              We see TV shows all the time like King of Queens, Everybody Loves Raymond, Are We There Yet, etc where the men are huge pussies and assert no dominance whatsoever. Yes, they are comedy shows, but they still continued to propagate that imagery. Look at the show "How I Met Your Mother". It's hilarious, but the guys are doorstops except for one guy, Barney (<3 NPH). It's awesome that they show this "Alpha Male" in the show, but it also sucks that they skew image to be funny because it's "wrong" to be like he is.

                              On top of this we have radio shows, pundits, talk shows hosts, and whatever else out there like Dr. Phil and Dr. Oz contributing to the further feminization of men and I think if this trend continues we are going to see one of the most fucked up generation of men any of us have ever seen.

                              Nice guys get labeled as pussies, Alpha men get labeled as assholes, and basically no one wins. I do my best to be an Alpha Male by doing the following:
                              1. Respecting women and all that they do in regards to raising a family, etc
                              2. Make decisive decisions and stand behind them
                              3. Support myself and my loved ones to the best of my ability
                              4. Be honest and have great integrity
                              5. Keep my mouth shut (no gossip, no rumormongering, etc)

                              I know this post doesn't make a whole lot of sense, but the entire issue is pretty nebulous. I think that Alpha Males are labeled as "problems", but if you look at the attributes I've listed above there is nothing there that lends itself to the negative image the status of "Alpha" male currently implies.

                              I will step off my soapbox now.
                              Well Said. Quoted for truth before I read any further.
                              Every Day is a New Adventure

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Apex Predator View Post
                                I think that's a fair criticism, though I also don't mean to imply that being feminine is wrong, it's not. If that's what you want to be, that's your right, whatever your sex. Just don't use the fact that the median of gender identity has shifted to the feminine as an excuse to try to keep me from living my own life.
                                Agreed. What I think it comes down to, gender identity shifting, is much akin to fashion magazines that dictate how women should look, how they should act. When you create insecurity either men or women it makes them more easily manipulated. The group with the fastest rising rate of eating disorders right now is men. We're all bombarded with images of what we're supposed to be, who society thinks we are. Men aren't immune to this and it makes them feel like shit, just like women are made to feel like shit for not being thin enough or feminine enough. Men are emasculated then made to feel like shit for not being man enough although the message is to be "more sensitive." It's a no win situation and most of us turn against each other instead of the source of all the negative imagery. Which is what the advertisers want as it keeps us on the BUY, BUY, BUY treadmill. The best bet is to toss your TV in the trash and start defining what it means to be male or female for yourself. I do have a TV but I just use it to watch movies on occasion. I honestly have no idea who the sitcom characters mentioned in here are. It's the healthiest thing for me.
                                Buy house, Demolish house, Build house.

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