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Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update

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  • #91
    Interesting thought about this very common sense thread. Their must be something about the op's writing style, that the respondents have not bashed the calorie counting aspect of it. In so many other post that mention portion control, counting, eat less, etc. their is a major backlash, any thoughts, or am I just off-base.

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    • #92
      It's early yet, but I'm trying to up my protein, and have lowered my fat a little (as suggested in the OP), and my scale was down a bit this morning. It's looking promising because I've been at the same weight, for a couple of weeks.
      Newcomers: If you haven't read the book, at least read this thread ... and all the links!
      http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread17722.html

      F/49/5'4"
      Jan. 1, 2011: 186.6 lbs PBSW Mar. 1, 2011: 175.8 lbs
      CW: 146.8 lbs
      GW 140 lbs
      A proud member of PETA: People Eating Tasty Animals

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      • #93
        Originally posted by pimpsandwich View Post
        Interesting thought about this very common sense thread. Their must be something about the op's writing style, that the respondents have not bashed the calorie counting aspect of it. In so many other post that mention portion control, counting, eat less, etc. their is a major backlash, any thoughts, or am I just off-base.
        It's because Paleobird provides a well thought-out approach to counting calories: (and it's why i have a girlcrush on you paleobird haha)
        There are some people who should NOT be restricting calories.

        1)People who have or have had any kind of eating disorder or OCD tendencies. You need to have a healthy relationship with food and yourself first.
        2)People who don't have all the other parts of the PB plan "dialed in" to their life. Work the fundamentals first. Primalize your pantry, get a good PBF exercise program going, really live by the ten rules Mark lays out.
        3)People who have other health conditions keeping them from losing weight. Get those things healed.
        4)People who have nutritional deficiencies. These need to get sorted out.
        5)People suffering from metabolic disorders. Let your body heal.
        When people get riled up about calorie counting, it's usually because someone has said 'eating less and moving more is the ONLY way to lose weight,' ignoring the holistic picture of health and accusing others on this board of lying about their experiences trying to lose weight while having metabolic problems, and introducing some kind of moralizing ('fatties just need to stop eating so much') aspect into the discussion.

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        • #94
          Calorie restriction is a very interesting thing. I'm aware calorie restriction promotes weight loss, but what "weight loss" are we promoting? It is my opinion that calorie restriction largely promotes the loss of muscle mass and bone density with low rates of fat loss. I'm proving this to myself as I've lost significant amounts of body fat since going primal while increasing muscle mass. I'm eating considerably more calories now than on a CW lifestyle. I also run less.

          To the OP: your situation is interesting, and I'd love to know what your insulin and leptin levels are. The thing that no one mentions around here is that very low carb diets promote insulin and leptin resistance as well. That's the thing about poisons: small quantities are healthier than none because it actually keeps your body's defenses in check. I'll sit here and argue that 95% wheat restriction is better than 100%. A serving of grains or legumes once every week or two may actually help you, and if you're a celiac, there's always a couple potatoes here or there. Here's the low-down on super low carb:

          I went on a cyclical ketogenic diet probably a year ago. This involved 5.5 days of practically no carbs with 1.5 days of very high carb. The CKD was very successful for 4-6 weeks, but after that, there were drop-offs. It was strongly recommended you'd get off by week 8 at the latest. What would happen was the absence of carbs made people's bodies unable to efficiently process them over time, and they became so insulin resistant from cutting them out, all the fat they'd lose through 5.5 days of keto would be reaccumulated with a 1.5 day carb up.

          A word on leptin: we all know what insulin is. It's the storage hormone that causes us to store all that nasty fat, but what about leptin? That's the hormone that tells fat cells to release fat, so people with low leptin levels, even though they're not storing fat due to low insulin levels, they're not losing any, either. As insulin levels drop, so do leptin levels, so long bouts of low carb eating result in plateaus because leptin levels bottom out.

          That's where carb refeeds come in. The idea is to eat low carb for a few days, then shoot your carbs through the roof to regularly refuel insulin and leptin levels and promote insulin and leptin sensitivities. To the OP: I wonder how you would respond to regular carb refeeds. You may be a person that becomes resistant to leptin easily, so you'll have trouble losing body fat without regular starchy carbs in your diet. You may be losing fat restricting calories, but I'm curious in what ratio. How much muscle and bone density are you sacrificing to lose that body fat? The beauty of the regular carb refeed is it's more about manipulating hormones than messing with calories. I was on a plateau and I broke through it by spending 2 weekends eating sweet potatoes and a little fruit.

          Try this for a simple carb refeed:

          Monday thru Friday, eat primally. Keep your carbs low and fat high like normal.

          Saturday through Sunday, eat 250g of carbs. Get those carbs from yams, white rice or soaked beans. Keep fat low, under 35g. Get your protein from very lean chicken breast and white fish. Eat 1-2 pieces of fruit a day, preferably apples or berries. The idea is to refill your liver glycogen with fructose, but fruit should not make up much of your carbs due to fructose's ability to be easily stored as fat.


          Now, let's say you're very active and you want to carb cycle. I'm quite active, so if I were to carb cycle, I'd do the following for me based on my workouts:

          Monday: Sprints - high fat/low carb primal
          Tuesday: Chest/back - low fat/high carb
          Wednesday: OFF - 24 hour IF
          Thursday: Sprints - high fat/low carb primal
          Friday: Shoulders/arms - low fat/high carb
          Saturday: Low level cardio - high fat/low carb primal
          Sunday: Core - moderate carb/lower fat

          On lifting days, I start every workout with squats and every other workout follow squats with dead lifts.

          Why don't you try something like this out? I bet you're sacrificing more muscle and bone matter than you should be restricting calories. Carb cycling allows you to keep your muscle and bone while lowering body fat levels. This is how the body builders get down to 5% body fat, so I'm sure it'll be more than sufficient for us average Joe's.

          I have a ton of sweet potatoes at home, so I plan on doing a carb refeed either Friday and Saturday or Saturday and Sunday. I haven't decided yet. Either way, on the high carb days, I'll be going for 250g of carbs, mostly from starch with 2 apples mixed in, and 35g of fat or less.
          Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 05-04-2011, 12:30 PM.
          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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          • #95
            Originally posted by pimpsandwich View Post
            Interesting thought about this very common sense thread. Their must be something about the op's writing style, that the respondents have not bashed the calorie counting aspect of it. In so many other post that mention portion control, counting, eat less, etc. their is a major backlash, any thoughts, or am I just off-base.
            There was some major vehement bashing on the original thread complete with profanity and screaming caps locks. But, after it is pointed out that Mark, Batty, Drs. Eades, et al are saying the same thing as I am, the objections kind of fizzle. Even the most vociferous troll on the original thread actually came out and apologized and said he was wrong. How fun is that?

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            • #96
              Originally posted by spakesneaker View Post
              It's because Paleobird provides a well thought-out approach to counting calories: (and it's why i have a girlcrush on you paleobird haha)

              When people get riled up about calorie counting, it's usually because someone has said 'eating less and moving more is the ONLY way to lose weight,' ignoring the holistic picture of health and accusing others on this board of lying about their experiences trying to lose weight while having metabolic problems, and introducing some kind of moralizing ('fatties just need to stop eating so much') aspect into the discussion.
              Awwww........ You made me blush.

              Yes. Calorie counting Weight Watchers style has a very bad rap, justifiably so. It ignores the whole metabolic process. But that is not what I'm doing here. Health concerns have to be addressed first.

              Absolutely right. Fat bashing moralizing is just so many levels of wrong. That was the only troll attack that really hurt, when that one guy accused me of doing just that kind of moralizing painting with a broad brush everyone who advocates "eat less, move more" and including me in the paint job.

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              • #97
                @ChooTaco369

                While running in ketosis, weight loss is pure fat because fat is the fuel being used.
                No doubt you have lost weight. I did too at first. Then comes the stall.
                Get your facts straight. High carb diets promote leptin and insulin resistance, not low carb diets.
                If you want to do super low carb then insanely high amount of carb cycles, fine, have fun. But I prefer to just maintain a sensibly low (not nonexistent) carb level all the time. It's just more practical. I stay under 50 gr/day to stay in ketosis. (Purple ketostix to prove it).
                I am not sacrificing any muscle mass or strength. In fact, my workouts feel better than ever. I know the weight loss is fat loss because I can see it when I'm in a bikini. What were stubborn pockets of excess padding are melting away.

                Thank you for trying to save me from myself. I really do appreciate the thought. But, I have found something that works here. I'm glad you have found something that works for you.

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                • #98
                  For me the whole idea of that carb cycling and refeeds made my head spin. I can't handle carbs above 100 g even for one day, even when I'm cycling 100 miles! It also seemed very regulated and very unlike what our ancestors may have done. My life is complicated enough without varying the eating so much in this manner.

                  If it works for you, great, but it doesn't for me.

                  Provided you are eating sufficient protein you won't be losing significant muscle, provided you are weight bearing during some exercise you won't lose significant amounts of bone density. You will however, lose a little of each just because your overall mass is coming down. If you get it right you just lose more fat as a ratio of what is being lost.

                  I would be interested to know if ChooTaco369 is male, what works for males doesn't always work for females, in fact, quite the reverse very often due to the additional overlay of cycling hormones. I'm going to post about cortisol and the effect on other hormones when my brain returns - it is currently on vacation after a long day of Slovak language editing!
                  Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

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                  • #99
                    I would find the intentional carb refeeds difficult too, I think, although I occasionally have "eat everything" days. Although I stay primal on these days, I usually have higher carbs than normal then. These often happen before my period. Maybe that is nature's way of doing carb refeeds for us girls.
                    Karin

                    A joyful heart is good medicine

                    He is no fool who gives what he cannot keep to gain what he cannot lose. - Jim Elliot

                    Mmmmm. Real food is good.

                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread29685.html

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                    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      @ChooTaco369

                      While running in ketosis, weight loss is pure fat because fat is the fuel being used.
                      No doubt you have lost weight. I did too at first. Then comes the stall.
                      Get your facts straight. High carb diets promote leptin and insulin resistance, not low carb diets.
                      That's not true. When carbs are routinely restricted from your body, your body becomes less efficient at processing them. Eating 100g of carbs a day with an occasional starch is great for insulin sensitivity. Eating VLC all the time, never incorporating fruits or starches and constantly slipping into ketosis isn't. Your body loses the mechanisms to handle them, just like your immune system suffers in a sterile environment. Carb cycling is far more effective at burning fat than both ketosis and primal. That is a fact, and it's why carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders. Primal is a far more effective tool for overall health than fat loss, and if you disagree with me, perhaps you need to get your facts straight.

                      Carbohydrates are not evil. You just need to learn how to manipulate them. That is the true key to fat loss, because carbs are what drive our hormones the most. Constantly keeping carbs low is running the race against yourself.

                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      If you want to do super low carb then insanely high amount of carb cycles, fine, have fun. But I prefer to just maintain a sensibly low (not nonexistent) carb level all the time. It's just more practical. I stay under 50 gr/day to stay in ketosis. (Purple ketostix to prove it).
                      I am not sacrificing any muscle mass or strength. In fact, my workouts feel better than ever. I know the weight loss is fat loss because I can see it when I'm in a bikini. What were stubborn pockets of excess padding are melting away.

                      Thank you for trying to save me from myself. I really do appreciate the thought. But, I have found something that works here. I'm glad you have found something that works for you.
                      250g of carbs is not an insanely high amount of carbs. For CW Americans, that is a low day. It's far too high to eat every day for sure, but you will see better results from eating cyclical high carb days than being VLC all the time. Keto plateaus just like primal does. Ketones aren't magic. Carb cycling...it really is.

                      There is too much brainwashing around here that carbs are pure evil. Remember the hump we all had to get over when we figured out saturated fat wasn't bad, but actually healthy? It's the same thing with carbs. They aren't evil. You just have to know how to use them.
                      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        That's not true. When carbs are routinely restricted from your body, your body becomes less efficient at processing them. Eating 100g of carbs a day with an occasional starch is great for insulin sensitivity. Eating VLC all the time, never incorporating fruits or starches and constantly slipping into ketosis isn't. Your body loses the mechanisms to handle them, just like your immune system suffers in a sterile environment. Carb cycling is far more effective at burning fat than both ketosis and primal. That is a fact, and it's why carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders. Primal is a far more effective tool for overall health than fat loss, and if you disagree with me, perhaps you need to get your facts straight.

                        250g of carbs is not an insanely high amount of carbs. For CW Americans, that is a low day. It's far too high to eat every day for sure, but you will see better results from eating cyclical high carb days than being VLC all the time. Keto plateaus just like primal does. Ketones aren't magic. Carb cycling...it really is.

                        There is too much brainwashing around here that carbs are pure evil. Remember the hump we all had to get over when we figured out saturated fat wasn't bad, but actually healthy? It's the same thing with carbs. They aren't evil. You just have to know how to use them.
                        If your only point is to bash Primal on a primal site.....?..............Perhaps a body building site would suit you better.

                        And I have tried carb cycling. It didn't work. I gained weight. You, by your sig line #s, are at a BF% where I think that carb cycling could very well be beneficial to you. If I ever get to 14%, maybe I will try it again. For those of us not on that level of leanness yet, increased carbs just undo progress. You are also probably male, right? In case you haven't figured it out by now, women's bodies are different. We store fat much more efficiently and release fat much more reluctantly. Again, I'm glad your way works for you. Mine works for me. Let's leave it at that. Shall we?

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                        • Originally posted by Kelda View Post
                          For me the whole idea of that carb cycling and refeeds made my head spin. I can't handle carbs above 100 g even for one day, even when I'm cycling 100 miles! It also seemed very regulated and very unlike what our ancestors may have done. My life is complicated enough without varying the eating so much in this manner.

                          If it works for you, great, but it doesn't for me.

                          Provided you are eating sufficient protein you won't be losing significant muscle, provided you are weight bearing during some exercise you won't lose significant amounts of bone density. You will however, lose a little of each just because your overall mass is coming down. If you get it right you just lose more fat as a ratio of what is being lost.

                          I would be interested to know if ChooTaco369 is male, what works for males doesn't always work for females, in fact, quite the reverse very often due to the additional overlay of cycling hormones. I'm going to post about cortisol and the effect on other hormones when my brain returns - it is currently on vacation after a long day of Slovak language editing!
                          I agree Kelda, too much to think about.
                          Yes, we really need to be sure to get enough protein. This can not be said too many times.
                          If you're at 14%BF, you're probably a guy. Even when I did competitive bodybuilding, I was only about 15%.
                          p.s. I just checked his journal. Not only is he male, he's also 24. Talk about different metabolisms!
                          Last edited by Paleobird; 05-04-2011, 02:03 PM.

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                          • Originally posted by belinda View Post
                            It's early yet, but I'm trying to up my protein, and have lowered my fat a little (as suggested in the OP), and my scale was down a bit this morning. It's looking promising because I've been at the same weight, for a couple of weeks.
                            Great! It's fun to see progress isn't it?

                            Comment


                            • It's funny... thinking back to my pre-Primal running days, as I was slowly cutting out carbs, it appears that I was doing a lot of what this thread recommends, and it was working fairly well. Really the only non-Primal things I was enjoying were my Kashi TLC bars (OMG dark chocolate cherry) and my bi-weekly brick oven pizza (which I still miss terribly.)

                              I've started going back to some of my old favorites from that time- whey protein shakes and yogurt. At the time I was low-fat, which is the only difference now. I'm not fat-phobic. Whey and Greek yogurt do provide nice doses of protein with limited calories and is appearing to be helpful. I'll tell you for sure when I drop down below 140, or get my azz back into my size 6's. I won't ever be 125 lbs again because I have more muscle now.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                                If your only point is to bash Primal on a primal site.....?..............Perhaps a body building site would suit you better.

                                And I have tried carb cycling. It didn't work. I gained weight. You, by your sig line #s, are at a BF% where I think that carb cycling could very well be beneficial to you. If I ever get to 14%, maybe I will try it again. For those of us not on that level of leanness yet, increased carbs just undo progress. You are also probably male, right? In case you haven't figured it out by now, women's bodies are different. We store fat much more efficiently and release fat much more reluctantly. Again, I'm glad your way works for you. Mine works for me. Let's leave it at that. Shall we?
                                Perhaps the key here, and the clue is the part about "carb cycling is the #1 choice of body builders" is that carb cycling is probably most effective when one is doing weight training with greater carb intake on work out days. Without stressed muscles all ready to soak up the glucose you might get a different effect.

                                I can't help but think of something Gary Taubes said on Robb Wolf's last podcast, when he took Matt LaLonde, aka "the kraken" to task for talking about things like it was settled and that in science you can't talk like you are really sure of something until you've done a LOT of controlled clinical trials. So to be fair, I don't think either of y'all can be as sure as you both are without something better than a theory and personal experience.

                                Again, it's very possible that you are BOTH right but simply haven't taken into account all the variables. i.e. cyclic low carb works for ChocoTaco, at his age, sex, with his activity level, etc. etc. but wouldn't work for Paleobird with another set of variables.

                                I think that one could say with certainty, after looking at all the time both of you guys have spent posting lots of good information, that both of you guys are concerned with helping others in their journey here and deserve a lot of credit.
                                Apathy is tyranny's greatest ally.

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