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Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update

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  • Originally posted by pattyd View Post
    Keep us/me posted on your progress as I`m going to use both approaches as well. I know I`m female and probably older (46) but I still want to give it a go. As far as waiting too long post workout they say to have your meals/snacks within an hour when your body is most primed to receive the nutrients....or is that just C.W?
    Yeah, that was the main thing I was hoping to get from ChocoTaco, but I guess I can also look thru leangains again. Talked with the owner / head coach at CrossFit Oakland today and he was advising some refeeds as well. If I ever get anything resembling abs I'll take some pics, but I'm not sure it is possible to go from morbidly obese to fight club ripped, in your 40s ...
    Apathy is tyranny's greatest ally.

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    • Hey, Choco Taco - I like your ideas and would love to learn more about carb cycling, but you hijacked a thread, dude! That's bad. Never, never hijack a thread.

      So, really on a carb refeed, it has to starch? I would of thought fruit is fine. I will start a new thread--please get on it. I want to learn..
      Last edited by otzi; 05-05-2011, 02:27 PM.

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      • Originally posted by otzi View Post
        Hey, Choco Taco - I like your ideas and would love to learn more about carb cycling, but you hijacked a thread, dude! That's bad. Never, never hijack a thread.

        So, really on a carb refeed, it has to startch? I would of thought fruit is fine. I will start a new thread--please get on it. I want to learn..
        From what I read yes, but that would be an insanely large vegetable based salad if it weren't.

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        • Originally posted by KestrelSF View Post
          I'm not sure it is possible to go from morbidly obese to fight club ripped, in your 40s ...
          I think it`s quite possible Just takes harder work and a little more time? I`m 46 and I plan on being hot and yummy!!
          "Anxiety is a sign of spiritual insecurity"
          www.beachbodycoach.com/fatbusters

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          • Originally posted by KestrelSF View Post
            Been there, done that, dear. I was 320 pounds when I started so I'd say I've A- come a long way and B- know about as much as anyone here about how to do it. I wouldn't be making a newb mistake like getting beef stock with sugar in it. I know the butcher and have already grilled him. And if you think eating a carrot is that shocking, I suggest you read: The Carrot Train to Crazytown/ The cheese, I won't argue with ya.

            Not to be mean, but you can come down really condescending paleo, and it is really off-putting. This has been a great thread, but the attitude often distracts from it.
            Hey Kestrel, my apologies. I didn't realize your history. Looking at your avatar, I see a fit gentleman in his 40s. How would I have known anything else? You have made some great progress and obviously would not have done so without knowing your stuff. I just recently figured out the thing about the sugar in the broth and was eager to share. I guess that makes me the newb. OK? Friends?
            Last edited by Paleobird; 05-05-2011, 03:14 PM.

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            • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              Hey Kestrel, my apologies. I didn't realize your history. You have made some great progress and would not have done so without knowing your stuff. I just recently figured out the thing about the sugar in the broth and was eager to share. I guess that makes me the newb. OK? Friends?
              Of course, and thanks again for the thread. If you are ever in San Francisco let's do sushi!
              Apathy is tyranny's greatest ally.

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              • Originally posted by otzi View Post
                Hey, Choco Taco - I like your ideas and would love to learn more about carb cycling, but you hijacked a thread, dude! That's bad. Never, never hijack a thread.

                So, really on a carb refeed, it has to starch? I would of thought fruit is fine. I will start a new thread--please get on it. I want to learn..
                Hey Otzi,
                Thanks for starting the carb cycling thread. I think there is a time and a place for that in some peoples' lives. I never meant to sound like I was against it on principle, just that, here and now, it doesn't work for me.

                I think it's all about the stages of the weight loss journey.

                Stage 1) lower carbs but be liberal with the fat in order to stave off cravings. Don't count anything just focus on healing any underlying medical concerns.
                Stage 2) lower fat and raise protein while curtailing overall calories to lose stored fat. This is where I am now.
                Stage 3) carb cycle to get those last few BF% points lower if that's really what you want to do. That's where Choco is right now.

                So it makes sense to have a separate thread to discuss Stage 3 in detail rather than try to have it be an either/or discussion here. I meant this thread to be about helping people to transition from Stage 1 to Stage 2 without getting stuck in Stage 1 and not seeing the weight loss they were hoping for.

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                • Originally posted by KestrelSF View Post
                  Of course, and thanks again for the thread. If you are ever in San Francisco let's do sushi!
                  Only Sashimi. Wouldn't want to have any of those rice carbs.

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                  • Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
                    Ok, so you completely edited your post after I quoted the original, lol!

                    Your information is fine & useful for some people, but if you carefully read the OP's first post, you would see that she has broken through her plateau just fine and doesn't need any help.
                    I needed to make my point clearer. Never once did I say that what she was doing isn't working for her, and never once did I say she should stop what she's doing and do carb cycling. I just laid out a sample for the hell of it because most people on this site are very unfamiliar with it, and maybe someone else would be interested in trying it. This info is for the masses and it references the OP. I personally don't care what method she uses. There are lots of people on this site that have trouble with caloric restriction, so my posts are for them.

                    I just don't buy into caloric restriction. That doesn't mean I think overeating is okay. I just fast for 16 hours a day, eat in an 8 hour window, eat until I'm full and do my workouts hungry. I'm much more interested in ratios of macronutrients and meal timings than I am in overall calories.
                    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                    • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      There is a difference between saying, "This is what I do that works for me. It might work for you too." and saying, "You should do this". Repeatedly. Even after having been repeatedly and politely told, "No, thank you."

                      Perhaps you should not be so quick to ascribe your lack of success with carb cycling to not doing it correctly. Maybe it's just not a good fit for you.
                      Hey, I just want to be clear that I never, ever said "you should do this". My argument has little to do with you. I don't care what method you use for your success. I'm arguing the idea of caloric restriction, because this is the area that most people fail at. It's much easier to manipulate hormones than reduce food intake, it better protects muscle and bone density and it allows you to eat until you're full.

                      Most people on this site aren't familiar with carb refeeds. I laid out how to do it for all to read, not just you. My goal was never to "repeatedly" promote the item. It's just when the very first thing you tell me when I challenge your theory is to "get my facts straight," then call me a primal basher...well, it's fair for me to defend myself, no? I actually do have my facts straight, and experience helps, too.

                      Yes, if you're very overweight, carb cycling isn't the go-to method, and there's a reason why. Carb cycling is the tool of the body builder, so the cycling plans are written for people that weight train and incorporate cardio regularly and with high intensity. If you are not a heavy weight trainer and you do not do sprints, you can't follow their plans. 250-300g of carbs would be serious overkill. If you're trying to do this through mostly diet with only light exercise, you may be better off eating around 40-50g of carbs a day, then on a high carb day, you take in 100-125g or something. All you need for that is to eat one yam with each meal. As weight loss increases, people tend to become more active, so that's why carb cycling appears to increase with low body fat levels. It's much more difficult to lay out a successful plan without the heavy exercise because you're not constantly burning through your muscle glycogen. If you're doing the refeeds with full glycogen, you'll store it as fat, so that would lead to failure. You'd have to go much more conservatively. I'm finding out the hard way it really is a great tool to incorporate on occasion. You should see my lunch tomorrow

                      BTW, thanks for the "ripped" comment. I wish it were true though. I still have a loooooooong way to go!
                      Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 05-05-2011, 08:19 PM.
                      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                      • Choco, I wish you well. Have fun rippling those muscles at the young girls. Meanwhile those of us who have more than 20%BF will be working Stage 2.

                        Please do not mis-represent my methods however. Don't paint all "caloric restriction" with one broad brush. I am not advocating Weight Watchers style starvation. On this plan it is very possible to eat until you are very satisfied. I do it every day. There is no damage to muscle or bone going on here. I have been able to work out harder and put on muscle doing weight bearing exercise (good for bone density) since I started this plan. The extra protein is helping with that. Because of being in ketosis the body is burning stored fat and not feeling deprived at all. And 12.5 pound in 8 weeks says it's working. 17.5 to go.

                        For me, adding a yam here and there serves no purpose. It is just gratuitous calories and carbs that knock you out of ketosis. My system is not being run on nil carbs all the time (which would, I agree, do damage) Here again, read before criticizing please. My plan is just a low enough level of carbs to stay in ketosis. Ketosis is not inherently dangerous and has never been characterized as such by Mark. Those were the facts that I told you you needed to get straight. Mark has even referred to tubers as being perfectly primal just not optimal for weight loss. I just don't want someone who still has a ways to go before getting to body building lean to get the mistaken impression that adding tubers is some kind of magic bullet that will make weight melt off. If you are in that super lean BF range and if you are lifting heavy, yes, they can be very useful. For the rest of us however, they are just starch.

                        You have said that carb cycling is a tool of the bodybuilder. Well, I was a competitive bodybuilder at your age but that was a quarter of a century, breast cancer, several major surgeries, and several pounds ago. I'm coming up on 50 and don't feel any need to ever "go there" again in my life. I will feel like I have reached my ideal goal at 20%BF.

                        For those who do want to do the shred, there is now a whole thread dedicated to just carb cycling. Have fun. Like I said, this is not about either/or. It is about different stages in a journey. I hope you enjoy yours.

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                        • FWIW, and my 2 cents... this back n forth is tiring. The thread has been so derailed. Thanks Choco. I'm filing this one away as "it was fun while it lasted."

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                          • Originally posted by Diana Renata View Post
                            FWIW, and my 2 cents... this back n forth is tiring. The thread has been so derailed. Thanks Choco. I'm filing this one away as "it was fun while it lasted."
                            Except it stopped being fun as soon as CaptainMonoManic posted...lol

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                            • I agree it was derailed, but the summary in the original post was really handy and much easier than reading the entirety of the old thread. So, thanks Paleobird.
                              "Trust me, you will soon enter a magical land full of delicious steakflowers, with butterbacons fluttering around over the extremely rompable grass and hillsides."

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                              • Originally posted by Diana Renata View Post
                                FWIW, and my 2 cents... this back n forth is tiring. The thread has been so derailed. Thanks Choco. I'm filing this one away as "it was fun while it lasted."
                                Tiring for you and me both.

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