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Calorie Counting Revisited : Distillation and Update

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  • Gender and age are still the two most influential factors. And, of course, there are always a few exceptions that prove the rule, hence statistical distribution.
    This time, like all times, is a very good one, if we but know what to do with it. Ralph Waldo Emerson

    Any given day you are surrounded by 10,000 idiots.
    Lao Tsu, founder of Taoism

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    • Originally posted by belinda View Post
      I've found this whole discussion (yes, both sides!) quite interesting.

      Paleobird broke through her plateau by going higher protein, lower fat, low carb.

      Chocotaco broke through his with carb cycling, heavy on the starches.

      And Eelnus must go through a pound of butter a day.

      Just goes to show how very different we all are and how nothing is a given for a specific person, but it doesn't mean we can't try any or all of the above to see what works for us.
      add to that those that had to increase calories to get past a stall or to see results at all.

      Kudos to those that find what works for them. I don't believe in the 1 size fits all.

      Comment


      • Paleo, I have to tell you that I've spent hours going through forum posts on different ideas, and yours have been, by far, the most helpful for me. I'm 40, but I have a body that loves to hang on to every precious ounce of body fat. Since jumping on here and following your "plan", I'm finally seeing the scale consistently move for the first time in 20 months.

        I have *always* been a believer in monitoring calories - it just makes sense that if you want to lose, you need to create a deficit of some kind. When I was doing 1200-1400 calories, 100g protein, under 50g of fat, I could NOT lose. I'd drop a pound, get all excited and then gain it back over the weekend (love my alcohol!!). I can't tell you how many times I've busted my ass working out, put on pants only to have them tighter than the week before, and stood in my closet and cried about my shitty body. Now I'm consistently at 1550-1700 cals, 120-160g protein, 100g fat, under 30g carbs - usually under 20 - and losing like crazy. Pounds and inches. Of course I know it won't last forever and it will take some adjustment since I'm probably 10-15lbs from goal, but it is really working. (My fat count is probably off because I have been incorporating chunks of coconut oil into my day, but that seems to be a non-issue as well.)

        Anyway, with Choco being as he is, I wanted to give you another "hey, it's working, don't question it!!" experience. Men are sooooo different in their loss. My husband can drop 3lbs overnight after a good workout and decent dinner. It's lovely that Choco's method is working for him, but weight loss is obviously not a one size fits all undertaking.

        And please, give yourself a giant hug from me!!

        Kathy

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          I'm not sure why you're being so defensive. It's always my goal to give someone an alternate perspective to think over. You being older than me is irrelevant. That fallacy is one of the first you'll learn in any critical reasoning class. There's a reason why I asked you what your method was when you tried. For example, you mention fruit. Carb refeeds deal with starches. If you tried a refeed with fruit, it would be a terrible failure. You want very little fructose - maybe 1 to 2 servings a day. None would be much better than copious.

          Here's the reality - none of us truly know what works best for us. We may think we do, but 6 months from now, a new study will get released that'll show us something we've been doing horribly wrong for years. This forum is all about providing alternate methods to help us all out. It's not about speaking authoritatively and striking down anyone with a thought different than ours. If ANY of us were doing everything right, none of us would be here at all. Outside of a 7 week CKD, I have done a total of 2 48 hour carb refeeds since going primal a few months ago. They truly did help me bust a plateau I was stuck on since before I went totally primal. That is why I'll be doing a third. It really works.

          I'm not here to "push my agenda". I'm here to help you, and sometimes help means tearing down your defenses and letting go of preconceived notions. If you choose to sweep everything I'm saying under the rug, that's fine, but if this all so much as helps one other person on this forum, then it was worth it.
          I really like and found very informative Paleobird's post. It really made me think about my fat intake and portion control. However I think ChocoTaco is right when he is saying that Paleobird is being defensive. Unless this thread belongs to her, I think anyone can post their views and methods on how to achieve their personal goals. I have tried cyclic carbing without success because I probably didn't do it correctly and more likely because I couldn't stand the thought of counting carbs on every single day. This is a forum and not a place to tell people to back off!
          Last edited by greek_girl; 05-05-2011, 06:20 AM. Reason: spelling mistakes!

          Comment


          • On the subject of "carb refeeding" I'll add a bit - twice when I was on my big weight loss cycle, I took a trip abroad for about two weeks and lost control of primal food choices, more or less. Both times upon coming back I immediately lost several pounds - and it wasn't all water, and I kept it off - I do think there is some virtue in changing things up in general, both with food choices and exercise. The body seeks homeostasis and if you are trying to reach a new "stasis point" (fat %) then disrupting the general state of affairs may well have benefits. My suspicion is that this general principle explains part of the appeal of the "leangains" approach as well. Male, 39, was fat now skinny.
            If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/ and this (personal fave): http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

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            • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              Yes, keeping hunger at bay with protein instead of masses of fat is the best way.
              I'm starting to draw this conclusion myself, having tried the "eat more fat!" approach and found that while it seemed to help me reduce calories at first, it didn't long-term. (Sorry Geostump, for that detour!!)

              Problem for me is that I actually kinda hate meat and I'm sick of eggs. Hmm. Maybe I need to add yet more ground beef/chicken to my soup, since that seems to be where I can tolerate it. Make it an even chunkier meat stew that happens to have a soupy sauce, basically.
              "Trust me, you will soon enter a magical land full of delicious steakflowers, with butterbacons fluttering around over the extremely rompable grass and hillsides."

              Comment


              • Great post! wonderful break down! I've stalled out...recently and I've been looking at what I've been eating... and based upon my milk supply -its gone down over the past couple of weeks, and I'm not weaning and DS hasn't dropped his nursing sessions... I wrote down what I ate earlier in the week and realized my total cals for the day had dropped, my protein consumption had gone down, and carbs began to creep up to 150g +, and fat stayed the same. I've been feeling kinda funky - and realized after reading this thread - I've been neglecting my protein and that had caused my total cals to go down, causing a decrease in milk (just enough to freak me out! - as I usually freeze 20-30oz/week & this week I'm probably going to only be able to freeze 10oz!) No wonder I've stalled... even though I'm not *hungry* my body thinks its in starvation mode so I've stalled out. duh.. my body is trying to support 2 people and I'm not giving it enough food! time to eat more good quality foods, cut back on the carbs (Damn strawberry season!) got to run out to WFM to pick up goat milk for dd, maybe I'll head out early and pick up a bison steak or something like that...throw it on the grill for lunch.

                One thing's for sure... I can see how IF - at least for me will stall me out b/c I'm not getting enough cals/day... if I'm not paying attention to my total cal consumption can cause my body to drop into "Storage mode" I'm sure once I stop bfing, I'll need to cut back on total cals - and I may have to track more often to ensure I'm in my target range!
                The most depraved type of human being is the man without a purpose. ~ Ayn Rand
                What's your purpose? Mine is Optimal Health.

                Converted to PB November 2010
                SW 190lb
                Leptin Reset Redux (1Sep 2011) SW 170lbs
                25 Sep 2011 160lbs
                1 Dec 2011 158lbs!
                GW ~135lbs
                5'3"
                Mother of 2, and wife to a kick ass husband...trying to contain chaos and havoc on a daily basis

                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread40609.html

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  Hi Georgette,
                  Yes Peril was being helpful to those who use the metric system, but for us yanks, it added another layer of math. At 5'5" your HSIS weight is about 125. At 20% body fat that is 100lbs of lean mass. I would set the range of grams of protein needed per day (on whatever tracking device you are using) between these two numbers 100-125.
                  How did you get to 125 being an ideal weight? I'm 5"5, and there's absolutely no way I could ever get down to that weight. This sort of reminds of reading 17 magazine in the early 80s. "girls who are 5 feet tall should weigh 100 pounds. Add 5 pounds for every inch over 5 feet..."

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by JKC View Post
                    These often happen before my period. Maybe that is nature's way of doing carb refeeds for us girls.
                    Good question. That`s when my "cravings" for carbs set in
                    "Anxiety is a sign of spiritual insecurity"
                    www.beachbodycoach.com/fatbusters

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by tfarny View Post
                      On the subject of "carb refeeding" I'll add a bit - twice when I was on my big weight loss cycle, I took a trip abroad for about two weeks and lost control of primal food choices, more or less. Both times upon coming back I immediately lost several pounds - and it wasn't all water, and I kept it off - I do think there is some virtue in changing things up in general, both with food choices and exercise. The body seeks homeostasis and if you are trying to reach a new "stasis point" (fat %) then disrupting the general state of affairs may well have benefits. My suspicion is that this general principle explains part of the appeal of the "leangains" approach as well. Male, 39, was fat now skinny.
                      I've had very similar experiences with vacations (female, 29, was obese now slim). Based on what we currently know about leptin, I'm also inclined to believe that "shaking things up" once in a while can be beneficial.

                      HOWEVER...I'd also like to second the idea that what works for a 24 year old male with sub-20% BF is not necessarily going to work the same way for a post-menopausal woman, since they have entirely different hormonal profiles. Unfortunately, the majority of exercise science studies are done on young males, so the women, older people, and especially the older women are left making educated guesses and experimenting on themselves through trial and error.

                      Plus, calorie counting isn't something to be avoided at all costs, like some seem to assert. Like other systems of tracking and controlling food intake, it can be a very useful tool, assuming that you're using it correctly.
                      The Primal Holla! Eating fat. Getting lean. Being awesome.

                      You were sick, but now you're well, and there's work to do. - Kilgore Trout

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by Digby View Post
                        Gender and age are still the two most influential factors. And, of course, there are always a few exceptions that prove the rule, hence statistical distribution.
                        Yes, my experience over the last 18 months has really emphasized that point. It would be interesting if we could run Choco through a couple of months with female (preferrably peri-menopausal) hormone cycles :-)
                        Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

                        Comment


                        • When I was doing 1200-1400 calories, 100g protein, under 50g of fat, I could NOT lose. I'd drop a pound, get all excited and then gain it back over the weekend (love my alcohol!!). I can't tell you how many times I've busted my ass working out, put on pants only to have them tighter than the week before, and stood in my closet and cried about my shitty body. Now I'm consistently at 1550-1700 cals, 120-160g protein, 100g fat, under 30g carbs - usually under 20 - and losing like crazy
                          Finngirl71, this is so interesting. Did you increase your daily calories and protein consumption because you used Paleobird's posted methodology (to use BMR to determine calorie homeostasis...protein grms based on estimated lean body mass...desired daily calorie deficit, etc.)? Because you made a significant change in what you were doing. Anyway it is so cool how well it's working for you. I wonder if a big part of the reason that it's working better is because your calories were too low for you at 1200-1400 per day, causing your body to go into conservation mode--perceived starvation and all that. What do you think is the reason it's working so much better?

                          To Paleobird and everyone else: I didn't read the original thread and one thing I haven't found in this thread is a synopsis of why higher protein consumption is critical success factor. Is it because:

                          *leads to improved satiety?
                          *required for preservation of lean body mass?
                          *reduced insulin effect and improved BS control (as compared to carbs)?
                          *all of the above?

                          Is there anything I'm missing in this list about why increased protein is so effective?
                          I'm a quitter...but I'm back now.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by theholla View Post
                            I've had very similar experiences with vacations (female, 29, was obese now slim). Based on what we currently know about leptin, I'm also inclined to believe that "shaking things up" once in a while can be beneficial.

                            HOWEVER...I'd also like to second the idea that what works for a 24 year old male with sub-20% BF is not necessarily going to work the same way for a post-menopausal woman, since they have entirely different hormonal profiles. Unfortunately, the majority of exercise science studies are done on young males, so the women, older people, and especially the older women are left making educated guesses and experimenting on themselves through trial and error.

                            Plus, calorie counting isn't something to be avoided at all costs, like some seem to assert. Like other systems of tracking and controlling food intake, it can be a very useful tool, assuming that you're using it correctly.
                            That's why I said I was male, 39, and formerly fat / out of shape - to put my experience in context. I don't count, but I did enough counting at first to get a rough idea of that side of things, and it was useful. I'm not disagreeing with anything in this thread, I'm just speaking up for the "change it up" idea - I suspect there are more mechanisms than leptin that work to maintain homeostasis of both fat % and other things.
                            If you are new to the PB - please ignore ALL of this stuff, until you've read the book, or at least http://www.marksdailyapple.com/primal-blueprint-101/ and this (personal fave): http://www.archevore.com/get-started/

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by frances View Post
                              How did you get to 125 being an ideal weight? I'm 5"5, and there's absolutely no way I could ever get down to that weight. This sort of reminds of reading 17 magazine in the early 80s. "girls who are 5 feet tall should weigh 100 pounds. Add 5 pounds for every inch over 5 feet..."
                              I remember that issue of Seventeen but that was from the early 90's LOL!

                              I know I will never weigh 125. I keep thinking 150-170 seems appropriate for me.
                              Georgette

                              Comment


                              • After reading through this entire thread this morning I think I`m going to experiment with both lines of thought. Getting adequate lean protein has always been difficult for me as I get bored after awhile. I need to get in the habit of just sucking it up and eating it at every meal. I also take BCAA`s which I heard helps (thanks Kelda). I also understand choco`s view and logic on carb re-feeding although I need to study up on the leptin issue. I would think it would be beneficial to always keep your body guessing and not get into a routine. Just like in weight training or whatever when you hit a plateau isn`t it usually because your body has adapted? If you change it up doesn`t it prevent the adaptation mode? I`ll try both ways for awhile and see how I feel Thank you both for your awesome knowledge!
                                "Anxiety is a sign of spiritual insecurity"
                                www.beachbodycoach.com/fatbusters

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