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  • #16
    Bumping this b/c I found a few threads on this yet, but not yet the answer to the question I have - McDougall's focus on the diet of lots of fruits and vegetables, salads for breakfast, basically true vegetarian (not a grainatarian like so many actually are). Do they really eat like this? How?
    5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
    Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
    Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
    Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
    ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

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    • #17
      Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
      Do they really eat like this? How?
      Jurek is vegan. From what I hear, a very smart guy who spends a lot of time and energy and uses a lot of technology to stay healthy. The rest of the diet stuff in BTR is romanticism, IMO. He has an audience to entertain, after all, and vegetarianism has broad appeal.

      Gordo

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      • #18
        I loved the book too. I've retired from running though since reading it and really understanding what the long distance stuff does to your body. It isn't good - Art De Vany is VERY anti-endurance running for the metronomic stress it puts your heart through and of course Mark is a former marathoner so really knows what he's talking about. History is littered with the premature deaths of endurance athletes. Grete Waitz died just last week aged 57 ...
        Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

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        • #19
          Add me to the list of people who really loved the book. I've hated the idea of distance running for my whole life (always was overweight), but this book made me want to get out and RUN. I even already had a pair of VFFs, as a kettlebeller. Fortunately, given what I've learned here about overdoing endurance exercise, I never really got into it hardcore.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by Kelda View Post
            Art De Vany is VERY anti-endurance running for the metronomic stress it puts your heart through and of course Mark is a former marathoner so really knows what he's talking about.
            De Vany is an egotistical ass who cherry-picks his studies. While I like Mark much more on all fronts, he IS selling a prepackaged lifestyle to mostly sedentary people. Telling them that they don't have to work hard or suffer is a huge selling point ... Bottom line, their exercise philosophy is geared for non-athletes. I even agree that doing only PB is better than doing only chronic cardio if you're only going to do one or the other. I think that pitching it the way he does is smart. I'm not busting Mark's chops. I would pitch it the exact same way. Anyone serious about reaching their full potential isn't going to listen anyway, so why bother with them? Help the people you CAN help.

            Here's an example of what long-term running does to you: longer life and less disability. Sounds good to me.

            Running slows the aging clock, Stanford researchers find - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine

            Gordo

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            • #21
              Originally posted by gordo View Post
              De Vany is an egotistical ass who cherry-picks his studies. While I like Mark much more on all fronts, he IS selling a prepackaged lifestyle to mostly sedentary people. Telling them that they don't have to work hard or suffer is a huge selling point ... Bottom line, their exercise philosophy is geared for non-athletes. I even agree that doing only PB is better than doing only chronic cardio if you're only going to do one or the other. I think that pitching it the way he does is smart. I'm not busting Mark's chops. I would pitch it the exact same way. Anyone serious about reaching their full potential isn't going to listen anyway, so why bother with them? Help the people you CAN help.

              Here's an example of what long-term running does to you: longer life and less disability. Sounds good to me.

              Running slows the aging clock, Stanford researchers find - Office of Communications & Public Affairs - Stanford University School of Medicine

              Gordo
              And you're not cherry picking?
              Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

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              • #22
                Hm... sounds interesting. I'll have a look at it!
                Last edited by Bissen; 04-25-2011, 10:11 AM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Kelda View Post
                  And you're not cherry picking?
                  Let's see. I reference a study of a large number of runners over a long time period. Measuring actual death and disability. De Vany references studies of stress indicators in the blood of marathon runners post marathon. And you're busting my chops?

                  Gordo

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by gordo View Post
                    Let's see. I reference a study of a large number of runners over a long time period. Measuring actual death and disability. De Vany references studies of stress indicators in the blood of marathon runners post marathon. And you're busting my chops?

                    Gordo
                    I was merely pointing out that cherry picking cuts both ways ... if you read NED (De Vany) you'll discover it's extremely well referenced ... using sarcasim isn't conducive to intelligent debate.

                    When Exercise Is Too Much of a Good Thing - NYTimes.com quoting Diverse patterns of myocardial fibrosis in lifelon... [J Appl Physiol. 2011] - PubMed result

                    "COLLINS, M., V. RENAULT, L. A. GROBLER, A. ST CLAIR GIBSON, M. I. LAMBERT, E. W. DERMAN, G. S. BUTLER-BROWNE, T. D. NOAKES, and V. MOULY. Athletes with Exercise-Associated Fatigue Have Abnormally Short Muscle DNA Telomeres. Med. Sci. Sports Exerc., Vol. 35, No. 9, pp. 1524-1528, 2003.

                    Introduction/Purpose : Although the beneficial health effects of regular moderate exercise are well established, there is substantial evidence that the heavy training and racing carried out by endurance athletes can cause skeletal muscle damage. This damage is repaired by satellite cells that can undergo a finite number of cell divisions. In this study, we have compared a marker of skeletal muscle regeneration of athletes with exercise-associated chronic fatigue, a condition labeled the fatigued athlete myopathic syndrome (FAMS), with healthy asymptomatic age- and mileage-matched control endurance athletes."

                    And for the ultimate example of cherry picking in general go read the China Study followed by Denise Minger's take down.

                    If you enjoy distance running, fine, fill your boots, I used to clock stupid mileage myself. I stopped last Autumn and in my n=1 experience I can now walk when I get out of bed and no longer have to hobble about while all the muscles and achilles recover for the first 30 minutes.
                    Seeking the natural way in a modern world ...

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Kelda View Post
                      I was merely pointing out that cherry picking cuts both ways ... if you read NED (De Vany) you'll discover it's extremely well referenced ... using sarcasim isn't conducive to intelligent debate.
                      De Vany reference LOTS of studies. If you read them, they're lousy studies. So what?

                      Gordo

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by gordo View Post
                        De Vany is an egotistical ass who cherry-picks his studies.]
                        I don't agree with everything either Mark or Art say but the name calling is not necessary.

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                          I don't agree with everything either Mark or Art say but the name calling is not necessary.
                          It's not name calling. Ass is a common word in standard English. Think buffoon, if you prefer.

                          Gordo

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by MamaGrok View Post
                            Bumping this b/c I found a few threads on this yet, but not yet the answer to the question I have - McDougall's focus on the diet of lots of fruits and vegetables, salads for breakfast, basically true vegetarian (not a grainatarian like so many actually are). Do they really eat like this? How?
                            Bumping again b/c I did a bit more checking and found that the Tarahumara actually raise sheep and cattle!!! Is this another example of Okinawa-style wishful thinking on the part of vegetarians, or do the Tarahumara actually eat a great deal more meat than the "barbecued mouse" I've seen described as their only real meat source?

                            Tarahumara people - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ("staple crop" is corn, but that doesn't imply it makes all, or even the bulk, or their diet. States that they raise sheep, cattle, and goats)

                            https://www.e-education.psu.edu/geog...xport/html/295 (cattle, sheep, and goats provide *meat* (not just dairy & leather))

                            Mexico's Sierra Tarahumara: a ... - Google Books says that the animals are used for sacrifices & dung, not meat or dairy. I find it very hard to believe that anyone would go to all the trouble of raising animals in the wilderness just for their dung and religion.

                            etc. etc. A few other links give the idea that the meat is only for feasts - kind of like the Swiss in Weston Price's research, who reserved meat for a weekly (Sunday, presumably) feast.

                            Any other ideas? I'm still finding it hard to imagine that people as ripply and strong as Born to Run describes are that way on primarily grains & legumes (corn & beans). And what did their pre-agricultural ancestors eat?
                            5'4" 39yo mother to five sweeties & married to their AMAZING DaddyGrok
                            Current Weight: 175lb__________________________________Goal: 135lb
                            Deadlift: 240lb________________________________________Back Squat: 165lb
                            Bench: 130lb__________________________________________Pre ss: 85lb
                            ***Winning a 20-year war against binge eating disorder***

                            Comment

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