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The "why don't doctors say this?" question

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  • The "why don't doctors say this?" question

    My friends are being ***holes and completely mocking the primal/paleo philosophy. One thing my one buddy keeps asking is "why don't doctors tell us this?", regarding the idea that grains are bad. I have nothing to say beyond that the medical establishment is a huge machine. Does anyone have a more tangible answer to that? It's so frustrating to deal with these guys. They hardly listen anyway (I say this as my friend talks about downing half a bag of oatmeal so he can gain more muscle).

  • #2
    Your mate's an idiot, not to put too fine a point on it! <grin!> Where does he get the, quite frankly, ridiculous notion that oatmeal's gonna make him build more muscle (ir's no good as a pre WO carb as it's slow-release)?

    As for docs, well it's simple. Read everything Mark has to say about CW and there's your answer, pretty much. Oh there's probably more to it than that (flawed research for starters) but IME docs, nutritionists and dietitians don't really have a clue (eating fat will make you diabetic's a good one - this is in relation to type 2 diabetes more than type 1, I'd have thought, but it's still nonsensical!)

    They're taught all this rubbish at med school, or when they take whatever exams it is they take to become nutritionists/dietitians and it sticks (I've had it all first hand from a nutritional therapist who told me that, in order to cure my insomnia, I had to eat porridge for breakfast, snack on oatcakes and Ryvita (rye crispbreads) and make sure I had potatoes, rice or pasta for dinner! She also banged on about eating 6 small meals a day (or I'd destroy my metabolism and get fat again - y'know the old 'starvation mode' bollocks). She even told me that Dr. Atkins died because he was obese due to following his own teachings!

    Needless to say, I've not seen her again since!

    I can't really answer you beyond that, other than it's what they were taught (and I wish I knew where all this rubbish stemmed from originally because it's doing many people so much harm).

    Sorry, I can't be more help, bud, but I figured that some answer was better than no answer at all (though there are some here who'd probably disagree with that!)
    La tristesse durera toujours...

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    • #3
      Results speak so much louder than words! Show 'em!!!

      As for why doctors don't say this, show them the PaNu website, he's a doctor!
      The more I see the less I know for sure.
      -John Lennon

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      • #4
        Throw a copy of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" at them and say "When you've finished reading that, in depth, then we'll talk. Until then, I'm not going to bother answering any more of your questions, because you're not ready to hear the answers." Then change the subject.
        Primal eating in a nutshell: If you are hungry, eat Primal food until you are satisfied (not stuffed). Then stop. Wait until you're hungry again. Repeat.

        Looking for my Cholesterol Primer? Here it is: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...mer-(Attempt-2)


        Ditch the scale!: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread33283.html

        My Success Story: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread30615.html

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Griff View Post
          Throw a copy of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" at them and say "When you've finished reading that, in depth, then we'll talk. Until then, I'm not going to bother answering any more of your questions, because you're not ready to hear the answers." Then change the subject.

          The man who talks sense! Think I need to find meself a copy of aforementioned tome. Is this http://http://www.amazon.co.uk/product-reviews/1400033462/ref=dp_top_cm_cr_acr_txt?ie=UTF8&showViewpoints=1

          Little on the dear side for a paperback, but it's been mentioned so often on here, that I'm thinking it's more or less essential PB reading!

          Cheers dude!
          Last edited by Shrinking_Violet; 09-18-2010, 08:47 AM. Reason: problem with entering a URL.
          La tristesse durera toujours...

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          • #6
            Actually there's a few Dr.s that do talk about a primal diet......and probably more than we think......you'll have to hunt for that data.
            Whether you think you can..... or you think you can't..... your 100 % correct.

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            • #7
              Drs. Eades: http://www.proteinpower.com/
              Dr. William Davis: http://heartscanblog.blogspot.com/
              Dr. Stephan Guyenet: http://wholehealthsource.blogspot.com/

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              • #8
                Originally posted by stjoad View Post
                My friends are being ***holes and completely mocking the primal/paleo philosophy.
                There is an easy answer

                1) stop talking about it with them. change the subject.

                2) The easiest answer is that docs don't study nutrition in school. They are trained to treat disease with medications and procedures. They are not trained to build optimal health.



                iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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                • #9
                  Well this Doctor preaches the primal lifestyle to his patients! At least I have for the past 2 months that I have known about it. All the science is there to support Mark's work and there are plenty of other books out there that also back it! At it's basis the PB is all about epi-genetics and the way food turns on and off our genetics, and that is what makes it so strong. It comes down to the quality of the doctor and the education and continuing education that they have chosen for themselves, and most go with only the nutrition education that they did or did not receive in school.

                  As for trying to argue with the monster that is CW Medicine...
                  How about the fact that a prescription drug only has to be as effective as the placebo in order to be approved by the FDA for human consumption OR the fact that only 30% of med schools in the U.S. require a separate nutrition course AND on average a med student receives about 6 hours of nutrition education unless the elect to do otherwise
                  "The power that made the body HEALS the body" - B.J. Palmer

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                  • #10
                    When I first started PB, I had a doctor's appointment for my annual checkup that week... she called me back a few days later to tell me she had concerns about my cholesterol (good was low and bad was way high) and that she wanted me to start taking lots of fish oil supplements and working out more. I told her I had just started doing all of the above, and explained how I was eating (fats, protein, veggies and fruit) and she didn't even raise an eyebrow. She said "sounds good! Can't wait to see you in 6 months for a follow up "

                    I had found her through a friend's recommendation and I remember my friend saying she was a more holistic doctor than most. I love that even though my cholesterol and BP were not good, she didn't automatically go to meds! She said she won't consider meds until I do the fish oil, salmon, avocado thing for at least a year. So... it's all about finding the right doctor!!
                    Starting weight, June 10, 2010: 213 pounds
                    Current weight, October 31, 2010: 177 pounds
                    Goal: Happiness, Health, Hotness

                    Screw "moderation"!!

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by cillakat View Post
                      The easiest answer is that docs don't study nutrition in school. They are trained to treat disease with medications and procedures. They are not trained to build optimal health.
                      Bingo. We (physicians) don't intentionally mislead our patients. The small amount of nutrition info we are taught in medical school is 50% wrong and all out of date. But we don't know that when we are taught it or tested on it. We learn the truth through our patients over the years. They teach us more than medical school ever did. You won't find a physician teaching his/her patients correctly unless he/she has learned to listen to the patients, and has done additional self study beyond medical school and residency training.

                      Why is the system like this ? I don't know all the factors. I do know that the reimbursement system doesn't pay enough money to spend 45 minutes discussing carbohydrate metabolism and lipids with a patient. You either do it out of personal desire to do what's right for your customer, the patient, or you get jaded, tired, and just keep handing out the Lipitor and Glucophage scrips.

                      You will read many articles about the business side of medicine complaining (rightly) that intellectual work and simple time with the patient is not well reimbursed, whereas procedures like cardiac catheterization are well paid. To understand why this happens on an individual level, (where the rubber meets the road, in the doctor's office), as well as at the macroeconomic level (health insurance and government policy) you should familiarize yourself with the concepts of time preference, and total cost vs first cost.

                      To put it simply, here are some of the factors :

                      On the reimbursement side, health insurance executives are only interested in how much the patient group they insure costs them this fiscal year, or even this fiscal quarter. They couldn't care less about what happens next year. Therefore they are happy to discourage (by refusing to reimburse) a payment of say $200 quarterly for a 45-60 minute counseling visit with a patient about his lifestyle and nutrition.

                      Three years later when the $50,000 dollar hospitalization for cardiac stenting comes, that isn't the executive's problem. Hopefully the patient is elsewhere; even if he isn't, every insurance executive knows that he/she is not rewarded for preventing costs down the road, he is only rewarded for this year's results. His CEO answers to the shareholders of Aetna, Humana, etc., and the CEO is on the same merry go round.

                      Thus reimbursement is heavily driven by first cost thinking. The USA readers may note the analogy with our own US Congress, predominantly only worried about this 2 year election cycle, rather than the long term costs of political promises and decisions.

                      On the physician side, we are all real humans with house payments, kids in college, etc. Should we see 6 patients an hour to maximize revenue, or only see 2-3/hour because that is all we can see if we are actually going to spend time properly educating people and following up ?

                      On the patient side, many don't want to change their eating or lifestyle habits. They just want a pill to make everything go away. If you spend the time educating them you find some won't even come back because their doctor is "too strict". So as physicians we need to understand the motivations of our patients and put our energies into educating those who might actually listen and benefit.

                      As Epictetus said 2000 years ago, everything has a price. As a physician, I can take pleasure in doing right by my patients, and that is its own reward. I could burn through more patients and make more money, which is also a reward, but then I would give up the reward of knowing I actually positively affected some people who crossed my path.

                      Like anyone else, I have my jaded, tired days where I could do a better job. It is not that I or any of us reach perfection in doing the right thing. It is just helpful to have a target of excellence to strive for, even though it is never fully realized. Thus we come to Mark's 80/20 rule! It applies to the practice of medicine as well as the living of life. Mark can be an Epictetus for the 21st century.
                      Last edited by Joe; 09-18-2010, 10:49 AM.
                      Never eat anything bigger than your own head.

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                      • #12
                        Going from a "normal" BF% to a single digit one did a great job of shutting everyone up around me that would give me flak. I have friends that try to imitate my dietary habits without really understanding the why of it now.
                        http://www.facebook.com/daemonized

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                        • #13
                          @Shrinking_Violet
                          Good Calories Bad Calories was published as The Diet Delusion in the UK and the British version is slightly cheaper on Amazon UK
                          http://www.amazon.co.uk/Diet-Delusio...4831135&sr=1-1

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                          • #14
                            Joe... thanks for that. That was some great info from the inside!
                            sigpic "Boy I got vision and the rest of the world is wearing bifocals" - Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Griff View Post
                              Throw a copy of "Good Calories, Bad Calories" at them...
                              ...and then say, 'Oops, sorry, don't know my own strength sometimes" as you help them up off the floor?
                              (Especially if you threw the hardback version.)

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