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  • Eating dissorder??

    Ready for this.. I have always been the fat kid. I have gained & lost & gained my entire life. So now that Ihave it right, & am @ my lowest weight (-95lbs. my hightest)since 10th grade (1981). Also the best shape ever. Now I am sure what i have can be called an eating dissorder. But yeaterday i grabbed a giant hunk of my belly fat that is hanging on like me manboobs, & said to my wife that i stiil want that gone, she said its skin, not fat. I showed her how thick skin is, & that its fat. So now she says Im like an annorexic teenage girl. Now she really wants me to seek help. If that name she called me wasnt so offensive to others, I think it would be my new screen name. I think she should be happy that my boobs are sagging like hers now...(ouch)
    "Don't dream it, be it"

    -Dr. Frank-N-Furter

  • #2
    She could be on to something. You did say there is a lot of tension in your home right now. Sometimes it helps to talk to a counselor. I went through the same sort of issues over the years and it took me awhile to admit that yes, I was anorexic and bulimic. My behaviors kept up for years and years though I stopped being as extreme. These past 2 years have been very healing for me since I spent almost 2 years not on a diet. Then I found PB and I'm still not on a diet. I just cut out grains. Its still a huge struggle at times and I fight the obsessiveness that comes with dieting. I fight the temptation to beat myself up for not being perfect in my eating,my exercising, my body.
    I'm not going to assume thats what going on with you, just something to take a hard look at.
    And on another track(I'm getting good at that), it could also be sabotage. Sometimes even if someone loves you, change is too scary. They usually want the best for you but sometimes they don't. Because sometimes it means they get left behind.

    I really hope you guys figure this out soon. again *hug*
    Calm the f**k down.

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    • #3
      For the last 18 years we have always been the opposite healthy. She dieted, & I ate like shit, & visa versa. Right now she eats CW, but not much food.Not a weight problem, however she does not exercise at all right now. I think she feels too far gone to start again. I am keeping my mouth shut about it. Dont get my tone wrong, I love my wife dearly, we will be fine. Thank you for all of your support.
      "Don't dream it, be it"

      -Dr. Frank-N-Furter

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      • #4
        Good to hear
        Sounds a bit like dh and I when it comes to stressful situations. If I freak out, he calms down. If I'm calm, he freaks out. KWIM?
        Calm the f**k down.

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        • #5
          I've been wondering about eating disorders and Paleo diet. Don't claim to have the answers.

          Anorexia can cause extreme wasting of vital tissue. But at certain stages, including re-establishment of good nutrition, it can temporarily cause considerable edema, fluid retention that the sufferer thinks of as "fat". Think of the big bellies on starving African kids, the result of hypoproteinemia. Which in the case of an anorexic could lead the sufferer to try starvation again. When sticking with good nutrition is the answer and the edema will pass before long.

          A really nutritious Loren Cordain type Paleo type diet might provide the answer. You eat lots of grassfed beef, fish, seafood, poultry, eggs, lots of vegetables and greens, fresh fruit, and nuts. You take certain targeted supplements to rebuild depleted body stores, especially B-12, magnesium, fish oil, multiple minerals with calcium, and absolutely Vitamin D. People can eat lots and lots of this stuff, as much as they want, with no apparent tendency to grow fat. Of the people who have tried it long term, all that I know of tend to develop pretty ideal looking bodies. They eat ideal nutrients to have ideal bodies, which makes a lot more sense than starving to have ideal bodies. You can't build something with nothing. If you want something good, you have to build it with something good.

          People tend to view anorexia as being purely a psychiatric disorder. I wonder if it is not, in part, an intelligent recognition that certain food is bad and has a bad effect on the human body. If so, the same intelligence would suggest that eating lots and lots of ideal Paleo food, with the highest essential nutrient content, would tend produce a fit lean and muscular body.

          I haven't been there myself. Any thoughts from those who have worked through anorexic or eating disorder problems?

          One further thought, chairdr. Have you had your testosterone levels checked? Especially "free" rather than total testosterone. Sometimes a low testosterone issue can cause some of the things you mention. In such a case, T supplementation with the aid of a Dr. versed in hormone replacement can be very helpful, changing unwanted patterns of fat distribution in males and making muscle gains easier. In fact, such a doc might want to check all the hormone levels and their balance.
          Last edited by Paleo Man; 07-24-2010, 10:51 AM.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
            I haven't been there myself. Any thoughts from those who have worked through anorexic or eating disorder problems?
            My thoughts....as someone

            ZINC
            Iit's likely that zinc deficiency plays a role. If one isn't getting sufficient zinc, enough that appetite is suppressed, it's likely that one also isn't getting enough zinc for a variety of other functions. Men use a tremendous amount of zinc in the production of sex hormones and therefore are at greater risk of zinc deficiency if not eating red meat , organ meat and shellfish regularly, or better yet, oysters oysters once a week.

            Zinc deficiency-->anxiety-->more anxorexic behavior from someone who is already leaning that way. This snowballs into less zinc being taken in-->more anxiety and more anorexic behavior.

            ADHD
            Persons with ADHD are more likely to be overweight simply because of impulse control issues. Add in the emotional eating due to the fall out from the ADHD and it's really quite a mess.

            I love my meds. And my primal diet. And my zinc and vitamin d.

            +1 paleo man on the recommendation to check hormone levels. I'd bet the farm that they're low....very likely b/c of a long term zinc and dietary cholesterol deficiency.



            iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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            • #7
              I can personally attest that a goodly chunk of the mechanisms behind an ED is actually nutritional deficiencies. Of course, there's all the emotional/messed up childhood/dysfunctional family dynamics crap .... but, IME, without dealing with what's going on biochemically in the body, you are destined to be like Sisyphus.


              @cillakat: What dosage of Vitamin D do you take/recommend?
              "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." -- Hippocrates

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              • #8
                Originally posted by TigerLily View Post
                \
                @cillakat: What dosage of Vitamin D do you take/recommend?
                I take 1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight per day. ***on the days I don't get midday summer sun in a bikini to the point just before a burn would occur, which is about 2-3 days per week. On the sun days, I take no D. Oh, and even when I 'lay out', my hands, face, forearms are covered....

                The rest of the time, I cover meticulously - seriously like a crazy person - to avoid incidental photodamage.

                Most who work indoors midday will need the 1000 IU per 25 lbs body weight per day....but not all. Testing really is very important. See my linked doc below for dosing information, levels and the correct labs to use and the lab to avoid (quest).

                A tan is not good indictor of D sufficiency.....I had a great tan - b/c I pigment easily - and was very vitamin d deficiency upon first testing.

                In atlanta, there is only sufficient sun for optimal D repletion from mid-may to mid-sept. And that's if one can get out midday *daily* in little clothing. Some very light skinned folks might manage but my schedule doesn't allow for 70 minutes every day at noon. And I'd still need to supplement the rest of the year anyway. Darker folks will need more than me....very dark skins could literally require 6h per day of full body exposure.

                Test, Test, Test.



                iherb referral code CIL457- $5 off first order

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                • #9
                  Coming from eating disorder land myself.. and getting the " start eating or you're in real trouble" from an MD .... Our culture in general is very fixated on eating, and appearance. It almost seems as if there is no longer even a middle ground.

                  I do know from having dramatic weight shifts, that even if now you have loose skin, and even if there is some fat there as well, trapped so-to-speak, it does go away.. skin takes a while to regain it's elasticity. A good stretch mark cream, or coq10 cream may help.


                  AS for an eating disorder.. I was taught this.. for every negative thing you come up with the say to yourself... never leave the moment without stopping and coming up with 3 positive things about yourself as well. For me.. I will look at my body and cringe... say to myself " gross, who wants this, I certainly don't!" then I catch it, take a deep breath and stand there till I have acknowledged at least 3 good things about my body. EYes, skin, the fact that overwieght or not, I am lucky to be preprotioned well.

                  Good luck. I think your wife is just loving you the best she can. She just sees you. My friends do that to me all the time. Mostly they just see me, and I am just now learning to. I bet if you asked her, she could come up with 3 good things about you so fast you would blush. Love isn't blind, it's just all enclusive.

                  Take care

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by TigerLily View Post
                    I can personally attest that a goodly chunk of the mechanisms behind an ED is actually nutritional deficiencies. Of course, there's all the emotional/messed up childhood/dysfunctional family dynamics crap .... but, IME, without dealing with what's going on biochemically in the body, you are destined to be like Sisyphus.
                    Then, of course, there is the chicken and egg question - and to what extent the emotional/messed up childhood/dysfunctional family dynamics stuff might originate from heritable tendency toward certain deficiencies/intolerances in our ancesters, i.e. might be due to biochemical causes that are inherited and passed on.

                    Parents with messed up nutritional deficiencies and intolerances might have reactions that cause their kids to have messed up childhoods, in addition to passing on the genetics that make the kids vulnerable to the same deficiencies and intolerances.

                    Time to break the cycle and now is as good a time as any! Primal is the way to go and Cillikat's suggestions on nutritional supplement focus can help.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                      People tend to view anorexia as being purely a psychiatric disorder. I wonder if it is not, in part, an intelligent recognition that certain food is bad and has a bad effect on the human body. If so, the same intelligence would suggest that eating lots and lots of ideal Paleo food, with the highest essential nutrient content, would tend produce a fit lean and muscular body.
                      If this were the case, then a more equal distribution between men and women would be found (unless one makes the argument that women are biochemically different from men in some way). Anorexia wouldn't be so culturally isolated, either. Those with anorexia don't lose weight by choosing Paleo foods (at least not generally -- could be combined with orthorexia); maybe veggies, fruits, lean meats, but also diet pop, low-fat foods, whole grains, and generally not healthy fats. I've yet to hear of a person with anorexia who got there by eating butter, eggs, and bacon.

                      Agree that there is often something biochemical, though may not be the same from one person to the next. The face of eating disoders change, too -- symptoms wax and wane, the person who had anorexia can develop bulimia, purging often gives way to obessive exercise in later life, and separating the chicken and the egg is very, very challenging. While it's important to understand and address biological factors, it shouldn't be at the expense of remedying the familial, psychological, and socio-cultural contributors. In cultures where thinness is not valued, the rates of anorexia are much lower -- if it exists at all. And, in cultures where fatness is valued, women will eat the point of extreme obesity to become attractive; I doubt that's much healthier.

                      That being said.... TigerLily, good analogy on Sisyphus.

                      Chairdr -- it can be really hard to let go of that image of one's self as 'fat.' Keep at it, embrace the support you have from family and friends. Sometimes it can take the skin a while to adjust to there being less of you, and don't forget to enjoy the other health benefits of Paleo.
                      Last edited by AutumnP; 07-24-2010, 02:30 PM.

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                      • #12
                        exactly, paleo man, exactly!


                        muchas gracias, cillakat.



                        much love, everyone.
                        Last edited by TigerLily; 07-24-2010, 03:10 PM.
                        "Let food be thy medicine and medicine be thy food." -- Hippocrates

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by AutumnP View Post
                          If this were the case, then a more equal distribution between men and women would be found (unless one makes the argument that women are biochemically different from men in some way). Anorexia wouldn't be so culturally isolated, either. Those with anorexia don't lose weight by choosing Paleo foods (at least not generally -- could be combined with orthorexia); maybe veggies, fruits, lean meats, but also diet pop, low-fat foods, whole grains, and generally not healthy fats. I've yet to hear of a person with anorexia who got there by eating butter, eggs, and bacon.

                          Agree that there is often something biochemical, though may not be the same from one person to the next. The face of eating disoders change, too -- symptoms wax and wane, the person who had anorexia can develop bulimia, purging often gives way to obessive exercise in later life, and separating the chicken and the egg is very, very challenging. While it's important to understand and address biological factors, it shouldn't be at the expense of remedying the familial, psychological, and socio-cultural contributors. In cultures where thinness is not valued, the rates of anorexia are much lower -- if it exists at all. And, in cultures where fatness is valued, women will eat the point of extreme obesity to become attractive; I doubt that's much healthier.
                          Excellent points, AutumnP. I guess what I am wondering about is this. In our society, women who are "thin" are relatively less common these days. For those who are thin on CW, there are various reasons they might be thin. They might have cancer. They might be methamphetamine or stimulant addicts. They might be celiacs. They might be anorexics and starve or purge. They may be into extreme cardio exercise. They might be vegans or vegetarian raw foodists. All of which are "unhealthy" thin. Or off CW, they might be using Paleo/Primal diet and exercise, and be thin and very healthy. I'll bet the latter are only the smallest percentage of thin women in our society.

                          With so many choices of how to be thin - cancer, meth, celiac, anorexia, raw food vegan, or paleo-primal - wouldn't it be better if a woman who desperately wanted to be thin embraced the latter? And ate lots and lots of nutritious Paleo foods and did Primal exercise. The only truly healthy and sustainable way to be thin? Just a question. I don't know how it would work in real life as a positive direction for those struggling with anorexia. I am just wondering and suspecting it might be a positive direction.

                          In a nutshell, you've got a woman who is obsessively determined to be thin. Seems there are essentially two possible responses:

                          1. You can try to convince her that she doesn't/shouldn't want to be thin through psychotherapy or familial or societal influences.

                          2. You can provide her with a way to be thin and still be healthy and well supplied with all essential nutrients.

                          CW seemingly can and does provide only #1 above. My question is whether #2 should be an option for her. Paleo-Primal is the only way I know of to accomplish #2. CW simply cannot accomplish #2.
                          Last edited by Paleo Man; 07-24-2010, 04:00 PM.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Paleo Man View Post
                            In a nutshell, you've got a woman who is obsessively determined to be thin. Seems there are essentially two possible responses:

                            1. You can try to convince her that she doesn't/shouldn't want to be thin through psychotherapy or familial or societal influences.

                            2. You can provide her with a way to be thin and still be healthy and well supplied with all essential nutrients.

                            CW seemingly can and does provide only #1 above. My question is whether #2 should be an option for her. Paleo-Primal is the only way I know of to accomplish #2. CW simply cannot accomplish #2.
                            Agree, people -- males and females -- in several developed societies are struggling more with obesity, and I think a big part of it is diet. Eating and exercising a la paleo/primal generally increases health but doesn't guarantee thinness. I was out for a walk the other day, and two male runners passed me. One guy was probably about 6'2" and very thin and lanky -- but seemed fit and healthy. The other guy was likely about 5'8" and very stocky but lean -- also seemingly fit and healthy. The thing that struck me about them was their calves. Guy #1's were not very muscular at all and guy #2's were HUGE. No amount of paleo eating or exercise is going to turn one into the other one. Women are no different, so why is only 'thin' lauded as the ideal. Granted, the pressure is hitting guys more to be the muscular ideal with a yield-sign shaped torso.

                            In response to your statement about the woman who obsessively wants to be thin, my response would be "WHY?" (addressing your first point). Does she think it'll make her happier? More attractive? Healthier? And, why thin? Why isn't being healthy good enough, regardless of whether she's thin, muscular, or curvy? Not everyone has the 'thin' genetics. Though if people ate healthier, many of them would likely be leaner. So, in reference to your second point, she'll likely be healthier, but thin is only a maybe and shouldn't be considered the only acceptable option.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by AutumnP View Post
                              Agree, people -- males and females -- in several developed societies are struggling more with obesity, and I think a big part of it is diet. Eating and exercising a la paleo/primal generally increases health but doesn't guarantee thinness. I was out for a walk the other day, and two male runners passed me. One guy was probably about 6'2" and very thin and lanky -- but seemed fit and healthy. The other guy was likely about 5'8" and very stocky but lean -- also seemingly fit and healthy. The thing that struck me about them was their calves. Guy #1's were not very muscular at all and guy #2's were HUGE. No amount of paleo eating or exercise is going to turn one into the other one. Women are no different, so why is only 'thin' lauded as the ideal. Granted, the pressure is hitting guys more to be the muscular ideal with a yield-sign shaped torso.

                              In response to your statement about the woman who obsessively wants to be thin, my response would be "WHY?" (addressing your first point). Does she think it'll make her happier? More attractive? Healthier? And, why thin? Why isn't being healthy good enough, regardless of whether she's thin, muscular, or curvy? Not everyone has the 'thin' genetics. Though if people ate healthier, many of them would likely be leaner. So, in reference to your second point, she'll likely be healthier, but thin is only a maybe and shouldn't be considered the only acceptable option.
                              Good points again. Probably I should have said lean rather than thin. Definitely not excessively thin, whatever that is. I suspect that over time with a Paleo diet and Primal exercise, most women (and men) will look exactly as they are supposed to look. Which is very good and generally quite lean! Unless they have so damaged their systems that something is thrown way off. And even then I'd suspect that some interventions might set things right, e.g. Armour thyroid for someone whose has hypothyroidism, very common with wheat gluten damage.

                              I'm not advocating an emaciated or starved look. How unhealthy! And it may be that some combination of points #1 & #2 would be useful in some cases. Point #2 is a lot better than dying from anorexia as happens all too often when point #1 fails or is rejected. We don't have a lot of published long term data from a strict modern approach to Paleo and how it affects body composition. The men and women that I know of who have really followed a pretty strict Paleo protocol for some time are universally lean and very fit with low body fat. And very healthy looking.

                              If someone naturally has a thicker lean build or heavier bone structure, he or she will show it, but still look great, very healthy.

                              And that is what happened to me when I abandoned the SAD diet about six years ago. At 6'2", I lost 35 lbs of excess body fat in about six months and have stayed at about 170 lbs ever since, more than five years. Body comp analysis says 11% body fat, 41% skeletal muscle. If I did more resistance work, and I should, in addition to my hiking and x-c skiing, I'd probably gain more muscle weight and net pounds as well, but not fat.

                              Typical male, I didn't think much about carrying around an extra 35 lbs of fat, mostly around my middle. But my health didn't like it, responding with obstructive sleep apnea and cardiac arrhythmias, to which I was oblivious for years. Finally, I changed my diet for my health and the weight loss came automatically. The dangerous obstructive sleep apnea didn't disappear until I'd lost the last ten pounds.

                              Loren Cordain has a chart for average skin fold thickness in his Paleo Diet book, comparing several hunter-gatherer groups to modern Americans. The hunter-gatherers are universally very lean, even the Eskimos. Moderns average double the skin fold thickness. It is possible that many or most of us are genetically programed to favor a healthy lean appearance. Just as we may be genetically programed to seek other physical attributes.

                              In my backcountry exploration and travel in the West, I've seen thousands of wild deer and a total of six mountain lions. I've never seen one of either that was not lean, though some were naturally heavier bodied with muscle and bone structure than others. I'm not sure humans are naturally much different when eating a diet that they evolved to eat, along with appropriate activity levels.
                              Last edited by Paleo Man; 07-24-2010, 09:25 PM.

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