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  • #16
    I don't normally recommend going to the doctors for diabetes (mine damned near killed me) but you might want them to test your insulin production. If that is becoming a bigger issue than insulin resistance you might have issues that have little or nothing to do with your metformin and might need to be put *on* insulin.

    For me - after years of doing everything the doctor said and getting worse and worse and needing more pills (metformin, janumet, and don't get me started on the unnecessary bloody statins doc made me take) and finally insulin (without checking my insulin production levels first - gained 30 lbs in less than a month behind that frakking joke), I finally took matters into my own hands, learned a little, learned a lot, found MDA, began truly understanding what I learned. and dumped my meds down the turlet.

    A 16 day experiment (that wasn't the goal to start, just how long it actually took) with no grains, sugars (was already off those per my doc), or legumes combined with 3 hrs or so walking per week (half hour a day for at least five days in seven) my BG numbers went from the mid 300's down to the mid 80's . . . and stayed there as long as I observed the diet and a reasonable amount of *move at a slow pace*.

    It is worth noting I did the same experiment a year later without the walking (I'd been injured and gone off the wagon as it were) and had less success with BG never dropping below 100.

    I have issues with Metformin in general anyway because of how it is designed to function, but I'm not a doctor or medical professional so I'll leave that speculation out. Otherwise the above are my own experiences and perhaps a counterpoint of reference. YMMV.

    I've not had anyone suggest adding carbs to stabilize or lower BG, so that's a new one on me altogether.

    Comment


    • #17
      Originally posted by Hedonist2 View Post
      Thanks. BG seems to be coming down from less fat and dairy.

      >>BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating __ grams of carbs per day.

      All over the place. Doing "healthy" conventional nutrition and meds for 3 years.

      Sort of doing Primal for a couple years. ("I'm not giving up potatoes, rice or tortillas, dang it." Sometimes eating potatoes 3X/day.)

      Eating about 90% for a couple years. About 75 grams carb/day. Sometimes less, sometimes lots more.

      BG shot up while still eating about 75.

      Lowered carbs to ~50 with some decrease in BG. Increased to 75 with some increase in BG. (I should really keep a journal.)

      I normally eat a protein breakfast early and measure around noon. But sometimes a measure when I get up or at other times during the day. Usually measure once a day, but up to 4X.
      OK, then can you please clarify what sort of BG measures each of the figures you reported are (fasting, post-meal or random)? Here's your timeline again, as best I can determine given the additional info you provided, and with the question remaining of what type of measure each the "BG" figures was and what you're doing since you ended the 150+ carbs experiment:

      1. [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG stable at ~120 for about 7 years with Metformin and eating an avg of ~75 grams of carbs (within a wide range) per day via various diets, including "healthy" conventional nutrition for 3 years and then Primal plus potatoes, rice and tortillas for 2 years.
      2. [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG shot up in the last few months to >200 while still eating the same Primal-plus diet with an avg of 75 grams of carbs per day, and despite taking more Metformin
      3. Lowered carb intake to ~50 g/day with some decrease in [Fasting/post-meal/random/all?] BG.
      4. Increased carbs back up to ~75 g/day with with some increase in [Fasting/post-meal/random/all?] BG.
      5. Increased carbs to ~150+ g/day for 3 days (potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc.) with further increase in [Fasting/post-meal/random?] BG to 350+.
      6. Ended that experiment and lowered carbs again to ___ g/day, with ___ result to fasting/post-meal/random BG.

      It makes a big difference what type of BG test each figure represents. For example, a fasting BG of >200 is much worse than a post-meal BG of >200, (though neither are considered good, of course).

      Why did you increase the carbs back up to the ~75g/day and then further to 350+ if the ~50g/day was working for you to decrease BG?

      Thanks for the additional info. Sorry for all the questions. Your history seems similar in some ways to mine, so it seems like maybe I might be able to provide you with some useful info or your info might be useful information for me (selfish, I know ), and I'm seeking first to understand your info.

      I try to keep a health journal myself, and know it can be difficult to keep up with it. At this point I mainly note occasional unusual things and stuff that might be clues to something. I noted much more early on.
      Last edited by Paleophil; 06-19-2014, 04:41 PM.
      Originally posted by tatertot
      Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
      "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

      "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

      Comment


      • #18
        It makes a big difference what type of BG test each figure represents. For example, a fasting BG of >200 is much worse than a post-meal BG of >200, (though neither are considered good, of course).

        Why did you increase the carbs back up to the ~75g/day and then further to 350+ if the ~50g/day was working for you to decrease BG?

        Thanks for the additional info. Sorry for all the questions.
        Dropping to 50g/day made only a minor difference. Not sure why I went to 75. Maybe from someone's suggestion. Maybe just slacking off. Yes, I need to keep a journal.

        And yes, I probably need to check BG same way every day. I eat when I get hungry in the morning. Can be 5 am or 11 am.

        No problem. Thanks for taking an interest.
        Ancestral Health Info - My blog about Primal and the general ancestral health movement. Site just remodeled using HTML5/CSS3 instead of Wordpress.

        My MDA Friday success story - Stubborn Senior's Testimonial

        Comment


        • #19
          @Brahnamin: Doc says wait for next a1c1 in a month. I'm going to try the lowered dairy/fat in the meantime. I was in the hospital about 6 weeks ago (v tach). They pumped me full of insulin, which didn't seem to do anything. BG around 350.

          I thought Metformin was one of the good meds.

          Yes, exercise makes a huge difference.
          Ancestral Health Info - My blog about Primal and the general ancestral health movement. Site just remodeled using HTML5/CSS3 instead of Wordpress.

          My MDA Friday success story - Stubborn Senior's Testimonial

          Comment


          • #20
            Ventricular tachycardia and BG measures above 200 and even 350 and unresponsive to insulin are serious health problems. Do you have any idea what contributed to your initial rapid rise of BG >200 or the tachycardia? Your diet at the time of PB plus potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc. seems relatively reasonable. It's something of a puzzle why things should have turned dramatically worse. Does your physician have any ideas yet about what the problem(s) might be? Your unusual example seems like one we could learn something from.

            I'm not a physician, not prescribing, and don't know what is going to work for you--FWIW, If it were me, I would be checking both my fasting and post-meal BG and trying to keep the BG spikes below 160 (roughly the figure suggested by Chris Kresser, Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris and others) or so to avoid organ damage (but I don't advocate going to the extremes that Dr. Bernstein recommends).

            Like you, the 3 day carb up with "safe" carbs didn't work for me when I developed high and rising FBG and post-meal BG (in my case, while eating a VLC diet), nor did gradual increase of carbs over time. FWIW, I found that prebiotics, especially resistant starch, seem to have done the most to bring my post-meal BG spikes and FBG down, though I wouldn't say my overall health and fitness is ideal, so I'm not pretending that it was a panacea. Other people have reported that probiotics also helped.
            Last edited by Paleophil; 06-20-2014, 05:34 AM.
            Originally posted by tatertot
            Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
            "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

            "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

            Comment


            • #21
              I can't contribute to the diabetes discussion, but wanted to comment on the higher carb suggestions from the forum--there is a very vocal contingent, even more so a few months back, with a herd of them jumping to suggest higher carb eating frequently. After hearing so much of it back in the winter, I tried that route as well, gained weight, felt worse. I'm back to around 75g/day, feeling better, losing fat. So, yeah, just because you hear something a lot doesn't mean it's a good idea for YOU. Glad you started the thread and are getting helpful feedback.

              Comment


              • #22
                I'm not sure how much I can contribute at this point but I have been diabetic(type II) for nine years and on metformin for seven. I took insulin during my pregnancy. I am a fifth generation diabetic. My family was getting diabetes when they were hardworking farmers and fishermen. The endocrinologist feels that my diabetes is purely genetic and not lifestyle. I have worked hard for good control and saw it slipping away from me even though I hadn't changed anything. When I talked it over with the endo she said that it simply may be the disease progressing despite my best efforts. Not what I wanted to hear. I would second having your insulin levels checked because you simply may be unable to produce enough anymore. Unfortunately that is the progression of the disease. I saw it happen with my mom and my grandparents and they all ended up on insulin. I also saw it when I was pregnant with my son. I was eating so little that I was losing weight and my blood sugars just kept rising. Feeding more carbs to a diabetic is generally insanity. One other thought is that illness and infection can do nasty things to your blood sugar so I would also ask the doc to rule that out as well. I had an abcessed tooth pulled(I was a single parent working restaurant and couldn't afford a root canal) and my blood sugar went to record highs for me and stayed there for 24 hours. Good luck, I understand your struggle far too well.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Hedonist2, another fellow LCer who like you and me did not fare well with so-called "safe starches" is Steve Cooksey. Like me, he experienced BG improvements from resistant starch, which he tried only after kicking and screaming against it, as he himself acknowledged.
                  "This is NOT a post about ‘safe starches‘, some believe that there are safe starches, foods like white potatoes, rice, sweet potatoes. All I know is, they have not been safe for me.

                  ... This post is about ‘resistant starch’ (RS)."

                  - Steve Cooksey, My Personal N=1 Resistant Starch Experiment
                  Other diabetics were influenced by the positive results of Steve and Richard Nikoley and others to try incorporating more prebiotics in their diets, and some reported rather remarkable results. For example:

                  Originally posted by Ingvildr View Post
                  Feeding more carbs to a diabetic is generally insanity.
                  That seems intuitive and I used to think that too. I learned the hard way that that bit of LC dogma is misleading. I never had BG issues until after I had been eating VLC for some years. I still eat LC, but not VLC, and I am now careful to include more prebiotics in my diet, with much better BG numbers than my VLC days (though still not perfect). While I was never officially diagnosed as diabetic, both T1 and T2 diabetes run in my family and in my VLC days I had multiple BG numbers that were in the diabetic range, including one that went off the scale of the meter (and the instructions that I didn't read until later said that I should go to an emergency room immediately!)--vs. none in that range so far since adding more prebiotics to my diet (knock on wood ).

                  Not all carbs are the same. Check out trehalose (aka "mushroom sugar"), for example:
                  Search on "tardigrades" (water bears) with "trehalose" to get a sense of just how amazing of a carb trehalose is.

                  Surely even most LCers won't be against eating the carb known as animal starch, aka glycogen (Glycogen - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia)?
                  Last edited by Paleophil; 06-20-2014, 06:46 PM.
                  Originally posted by tatertot
                  Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                  "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                  "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Hedonist2 View Post
                    I thought Metformin was one of the good meds.
                    Again, let me stress . . . NOT a medical professional of any kind.

                    My issue with Metformin (and this is my own opinion, I've not seen any science to verify or support this opinion in any way shape or form) is it mucks about with the liver and I am of the personal opinion that anything that mucks about with the liver is probably a bad thing if Metabolic Syndrome already has your liver working overtime (as was my case in particular).

                    That said, Primal keeps my BG in line (or has so far), so I'm really *not* in your shoes . . .

                    I do not know if the body can build up a *resistance* to Metformin so that it stops being optimally effective, but you might want to research that angle as well, or ask your doctor.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by brahnamin View Post
                      My issue with Metformin (and this is my own opinion, I've not seen any science to verify or support this opinion in any way shape or form) is it mucks about with the liver and I am of the personal opinion that anything that mucks about with the liver is probably a bad thing if Metabolic Syndrome already has your liver working overtime (as was my case in particular).
                      Yes, it is hard on the liver, an important consideration. I am doing things to protect it.
                      Ancestral Health Info - My blog about Primal and the general ancestral health movement. Site just remodeled using HTML5/CSS3 instead of Wordpress.

                      My MDA Friday success story - Stubborn Senior's Testimonial

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Paleophil View Post
                        Ventricular tachycardia and BG measures above 200 and even 350 and unresponsive to insulin are serious health problems. Do you have any idea what contributed to your initial rapid rise of BG >200 or the tachycardia? Your diet at the time of PB plus potatoes, white rice, bananas, etc. seems relatively reasonable. It's something of a puzzle why things should have turned dramatically worse. Does your physician have any ideas yet about what the problem(s) might be? Your unusual example seems like one we could learn something from.

                        I'm not a physician, not prescribing, and don't know what is going to work for you--FWIW, If it were me, I would be checking both my fasting and post-meal BG and trying to keep the BG spikes below 160 (roughly the figure suggested by Chris Kresser, Stephan Guyenet, Paul Jaminet, Kurt Harris and others) or so to avoid organ damage (but I don't advocate going to the extremes that Dr. Bernstein recommends).

                        Like you, the 3 day carb up with "safe" carbs didn't work for me when I developed high and rising FBG and post-meal BG (in my case, while eating a VLC diet), nor did gradual increase of carbs over time. FWIW, I found that prebiotics, especially resistant starch, seem to have done the most to bring my post-meal BG spikes and FBG down, though I wouldn't say my overall health and fitness is ideal, so I'm not pretending that it was a panacea. Other people have reported that probiotics also helped.
                        The v tach apparently was caused by scar tissue from angina 11 years ago. I've agreed to get an implanted cardiac defibrillator. Not thrilled by that but seems like the thing to do.

                        BG 117 today after heavy workout. Too soon to know if it will last. Had meat and potatoes for breakfast, then nothing until 1:30 after workout. Took BG before eating lunch.

                        I always have high BG after major health event in hospital. Not that high though.
                        Ancestral Health Info - My blog about Primal and the general ancestral health movement. Site just remodeled using HTML5/CSS3 instead of Wordpress.

                        My MDA Friday success story - Stubborn Senior's Testimonial

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Best wishes for better health going forward.

                          BTW, some of the above people I mentioned suggested aiming for a peak BG goal significiantly lower than 160 mg/dl at 1 hour postprandial, IIRC, but I went with the consensus higher figure. Even the more pro-carb blogger, Carbsane, seemed OK with this study that showed most people's 1 hour OGTT results not rising much above 160-170 and falling below 120 at 2 hours and she wrote: "having a BG over 140 at the 2 hour mark for this test is cause for concern." The Carb-Sane Asylum: Blood Sugar 140: Context is Everything II: The OGTT So trying not to generally exceed BG around 160-170 at 1 hour and 120-140 at 2 hours seem like reasonable targets for many people, with some diabetics perhaps having to settle for looser targets.

                          Ironically, it was LC diet advocates' advice to get a BG monitor and warnings to keep pp BG below 160 or lower (Dr. William Davis even suggested in 2010 that "Risk may begin with postprandial glucoses as low as 100 mg/dl"!!! Blood sugar: Fasting vs. postprandial) and FBG below 110 or lower (Dr. David Perlmutter even said to keep it below 95, Key Dietary Strategies to Protect Yourself from Alzheimer's) that was one of the key things that clued me in that there was something wrong with VLC for me, for it was while I was VLC that I developed BG numbers exceeding those numbers, and they kept on rising over time, and the recommendation by some of them to eat some potatoes for 3 days to enable passing an OGTT to fake out your doc and then go back to eating VLC did not work, which was another clue. Carb advocates were actually generally less concerned with BG. So the advice of LCers was more damning of VLC than that of pro-carbers. It's one of the paradoxes of the macronutrient wars.
                          Last edited by Paleophil; 06-22-2014, 06:41 AM.
                          Originally posted by tatertot
                          Finding a diet you can tolerate is not the same as fixing what's wrong.
                          "our ancestors obtained resistant starch and other fermentable fibers by eating a diversity of wild plant foods, bulbs, corms, tubers, cattails, cactuses, and medicinal barks..." -Mark Sisson

                          "I've long ago tossed the idea that a particular macro ratio is poison, and am now starting to think that the EM2…is defined less by novel NADS…and more by the gut microbiome and environmental pseudocommensals ..." -Kurt Harris, MD

                          Comment

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