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Fast food: Is there ANY actual evidence/science that it's unhealthy ??

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  • #61
    Originally posted by OnlyBodyWeight View Post
    Not one person has dropped dead in a fast food restaurant.
    Heart Attack Grill’s Unofficial Spokesman Dies of Heart Attack | TIME.com

    i guess teeeeechnically you're right, since it was outside the place, but another person had a heart attack inside

    This logical fallacy is actually called "argumentum ad ignorantiam" (Argument from ignorance)
    nuh uh, it's called a joke
    beautiful
    yeah you are

    Baby if you time travel back far enough you can avoid that work because the dust won't be there. You're too pretty to be working that hard.
    lol

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    • #62
      Behold....another poster using the board to insult people and use the "you are using ______ device" idiocy. We have had dozens here, and all have done the same thing. They will tire of it, and we will be happy in their absence. It's like clockwork here.

      Step 1) Make an unfalsifiable argument against something which is patently resolved. For example, a poster a few years ago that was explaining that actually, smoking is NOT bad for you....the key is that for the poster, what would they actually consider to be viable proof against their claim? One can always poke holes in any study or anecdotal set of ideas, regardless of their quantity.....it's the classic "prove to me that there is not a red tea kettle floating in orbit over the Earth" idea, which is hundreds of years old. It is asking for proof which the person would never accept, as their claim is not falsifiable, for them alone of course.

      Step 2) When confronted with the fact that you are defending something that is completely crazy, you use the "Carl Sagan Defense", as it is known in law school or college debate teams, owing to his treatise on argumentation. All you need to do is LABEL the argument the other person is making, and defend from a position where your (ridiculous) claim now magically now holds the burden of proof to be proven wrong.....so if I am a lawyer, defending a guy on trial for murder in which there is video tape of him doing it, and he happened to leave his wallet and ID at the scene, this is my only real play....it is not clever or new. Anyone that has watched enough court room dramas has seen it.

      Step 3) When actually engaged with facts, quickly pivot from them back into a more labeling phase. Repeat as necessary.

      Again, it is not exactly breaking news (or really even a matter of opinion?) that fast food is not good for you. If the OP is so well-versed in his studies, please lay out a detailed case as to WHY your own claim is correct.....if you are going to make extraordinary claims, I.E. that fast food is not terrible for you, then the burden of proof is on YOU, not on us. Works this way with anything....a scientist cannot walk into a conference and say "Prove to me that Einstein was not totally wrong." Only an incredible egomaniac or someone hugely uninformed would even attempt to say something like that. No, you have to go in front of them and tell them, with bulletproof steps, why something which has been proven a million times to be true is actually false.

      So the point is, you convince us. That's how actual analysis of anything like this ever happens.

      But like many others have said, that is not the goal. The OP needs to feel smarter. We are here to provide that. Let's be realistic...
      Last edited by TheyCallMeLazarus; 05-07-2014, 08:17 PM.
      "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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      • #63
        Is fast food healthier than home-cooked food? Does it taste better?

        I like all kinds of food so I suppose if I have a choice, I'll pick the food that tastes the best. I don't think fast-food tastes quite as good as the things I make at home. If you can prove to me that it's healthier than home-cooked food then maybe I will spring for a Wendy's frosty. I haven't had one of those in years.

        I'm not poor so I have been to a few restaurants where dinner for 2 costs $200. Sometimes the food is way better than what I cook at home, but not always. Some of the stuff I make is just as good.

        Also, is fast-food faster?

        Tonight I cooked some pan-fried (in olive oil and butter) Baramundi fish fillets with wild puffball mushrooms and mashed celery root. Took me about 15-20 minutes to make it. I didn't have to go anywhere so I got to eat it in my bare feet.

        Is fast-food cheaper?

        My Baramundi was about $2.50, the mushroom was foraged so $0, the celery root was about $1.75. The butter maybe $.50. So, a little less than $5. I haven't been inside a fast-food restaurant in a few months so I don't know what an equivalent pile of food would cost me.

        So whether or not fast-food is healthy or unhealthy, I'm struggling to see a real reason to eat it. Can you give me one?
        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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        • #64
          Shocking lack of logic, hey.....what a coincidence. I've developed a shocking lack of interest in this silly thread.

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          • #65
            Originally posted by OnlyBodyWeight View Post
            You've just invented a new fallacy. Argumentum as fallicium?
            "Wait, the guy's resorting to LOGIC?!?! Obviously he's totally wrong"

            Ironically, your Paine quote applies to YOU, as *I* am using authority of reason. Not you.
            Argument from fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

            M.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by OnlyBodyWeight View Post
              Wow, so logic is not welcome in a debate. That pretty much sums everything up. You have nothing to stand on except emotion and brainwashed Paleo dogma religion?
              No one said it isn't allowed, but the fact that all you seem able to do is pull out the Latin and repeat the same technical phrases over and over indicates that you have little intellectual flexibility and are thus not worth anyone's time to debate. It's just a highly complex version of arguing with my toddlers: not a fruitful exercise, because they simply have an insufficient understanding of the world and must mature before being engaged on an adult level.

              Just remember this, as you continue to learn the ways of the grown up world:

              Last edited by accidentalpancake; 05-08-2014, 05:31 AM.
              I got 99 problems but a pancake ain't one...

              My Journal

              Height: 6'3"
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              • #67
                Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                Heart Attack Grill’s Unofficial Spokesman Dies of Heart Attack | TIME.com

                i guess teeeeechnically you're right, since it was outside the place, but another person had a heart attack inside

                nuh uh, it's called a joke
                You would think by now that he would realize at least half of us aren't even bothering to take his ranting seriously.

                For fun we could use his own reasoning though. He used secondary observational information to assert that people jumping out of planes without parachutes die at an unusually high rate compared to those who use a parachute. He has likely not ever witnessed this, but he holds it as true none the less. So he accepts such data provided as is. Good. Apply that same logic to epidemiological studies...all of which show that introduction of industrial fast food leads to an increase in morbidity and mortality compared to the same peoples prior to introduction, or when comparing one group of people to another.

                Oh there is plenty of biochem to expand on why these variables are causative, but that sort of in depth response seemed to go right over his head (as we saw when he reverts to personal attacks on Tim when he doesn't actually understand something).

                But, hey its Thursday so maybe his intro to logic class is out for the day
                Last edited by Neckhammer; 05-08-2014, 05:36 AM.

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                • #68
                  I had a guy like that back in college, though his squeeze was political debate. It was annoying, as both sides are essentially equally arbitrary.

                  M.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                    I had a guy like that back in college, though his squeeze was political debate. It was annoying, as both sides are essentially equally arbitrary.

                    M.
                    Lol.

                    At least you don't have law professors who insist on drinking with you and debating politics... ANNNNNND You have to use CASE LAW (i.e. various cases from various courts and what they did to the law) outside of the law school context to defend your position. It's horrible. I'm like dude, I'm just trying to eat. Please stop arguing about First Amendment or Patent Law.
                    JOURNAL..
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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by TQP View Post
                      Lol.

                      At least you don't have law professors who insist on drinking with you and debating politics... ANNNNNND You have to use CASE LAW (i.e. various cases from various courts and what they did to the law) outside of the law school context to defend your position. It's horrible. I'm like dude, I'm just trying to eat. Please stop arguing about First Amendment or Patent Law.
                      Ugh. This is why I love online classes. I never have to worry about punching people in the face.

                      M.

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                      • #71
                        Nutritional science is such a joke, as OP has without a shred of shame demonstrated throughout this entire thread as someone who understands neither experimental design nor statistics, instead wishing to engage in worthless correlation hunts. Don't worry though, OP, you're not alone in this endeavor, as even the academics teach this same practice. For someone who is obsessed with pointing out logical fallacies, you sure commit several, turning your accusations of fallacies into non sequiturs. You're going to need to put more effort into this.

                        Do you know how ridiculous it sounds on a logical, no, scientific level, when you say "the fact no one is dropping dead from this is proof it's not harmful"? Let's say the hypothesis presented is H(following Bayesian update), and we have access to specific pieces of evidence 1, 2, and 3, but we do not have access to proof X, then the rational probability estimate is the result of said update. You can't therefore say, "there is no proof of X, so I'm going to throw 1, 2, and 3 out the window until you prove X." This is just not how it works at all. In your search for absolute empirical proof, you have set the standards for proof so high that it's impossible for science to provide, and now you've used this to enter into a pointless philosophical debate where you can win an argument by trying to submerge your opponent under impossible burden of proof. By this standard, you might as well ignore mathematical proofs also, there is no reason why it's any less epistemically wrong to ignore a probability than to ignore a certainty.

                        All this said, nutritional science is hard to study properly unless you lock someone in a room and force-feed them for years. It has a long track record of being unhelpful and unscientific. Beyond the identification of essential nutrients and don't eat so much you'll get fat, there is not much to gain from it.
                        Make America Great Again

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                        • #72
                          Yes, well aware of the sugar research.. I watched the Lustig lecture when that NYT article came out. Also have read all of Taubes' work. Have been doing low carb since the 1990s.

                          The real interesting thing to me, is just how religious (leap of faith with flimsy evidence or proof) the whole nutrition thing is. Its a form of identity, which can not be challenged... It goes far deeper then facts... Party line echo chamber worth no dissenting viewpoint. But when challenged prove their viewpoint, they can't. They just believe, however they got there....

                          I saw SuperSize me. Complete straw man propaganda...You can eat until you vomit at Whole Foods just the same..It proves nothing!

                          I am interested in seeing any analysis that shows WHY fast food is bad. If anyone can find them.
                          Does not have to be instant recall.
                          What are the proven claims beyond "It's just yucky!! waah!"
                          * It contains metal and plastic?
                          * Pink slime contains entire liquefied chickens (Is that actually bad?)
                          * It contains toxic levels of preservatives and arsenic?
                          * etc etc

                          And where do people come up with these ludicrous calorie estimates? A small burger is 250 calories. Small salad is 100 calories. Yet, food snobs (which is the very heart of this insecurity/identity) will react saying "That's GROSSSSS!"
                          Why? It's 350 calories? So, it ain't the calories. Is there plutonium in the food? I want to know.

                          A Big Mac has 550 calories. About the same as coffee, that Greek yogurt bullshit, and some nuts. Yet, somehow that's ok. You are still relying on the calories/portion control argument. I am not debating that. Eating 60 lbs of Kale will also kill you. I agree that's bad. Overeating anything is bad.

                          What makes you think fast food is bad? Particularly if you avoid fries and soda? And exercise portion control? IS there plutonium in the meat?
                          Last edited by OnlyBodyWeight; 05-08-2014, 05:53 PM.

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                            I'm kind of surprised that people can afford to eat fast foods daily, it adds up.
                            My Primal food for one day costs about $13.00. This is for 1400 expensive calories: organic, grass fed, farmer's market meat, veg, and berries (plus a little whey powder).
                            The grocery store version of the same daily diet, ie CAFO, non-organic, is about $9.75.
                            A Combo lunch meal at McD's is upwards of $6.59. Add in a coffee and a Ho-Ho and suddenly that fast food costs as much as grocery store primal.
                            5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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                            • #74
                              The issue w/ Pink Slime was ammonium hydroxide, which is a known toxin. However, specifically w/ regard to Chicken McNuggets that's not how they make it any more. I think they changed a decade or more ago.

                              Here's what's in the bun and special sauce of a big mac. Preservatives, HFCS and other ingredients that are probably not good for you.

                              Big Mac Bun:
                              Ingredients: Enriched Flour (Bleached Wheat Flour, Malted Barley Flour, Niacin, Reduced Iron, Thiamin Mononitrate, Riboflavin, Folic Acid), Water, High Fructose
                              Corn Syrup and/or Sugar, Yeast, Soybean Oil and/or Canola Oil, Contains 2% or Less: Salt, Wheat Gluten, Calcium Sulfate, Calcium Carbonate, Ammonium Sulfate,
                              Ammonium Chloride, Dough Conditioners (May Contain One or More of: Sodium Stearoyl Lactylate, DATEM, Ascorbic Acid, Azodicarbonamide, Mono and
                              Diglycerides, Ethoxylated Monoglycerides, Monocalcium Phosphate, Enzymes, Guar Gum, Calcium Peroxide), Sorbic Acid (Preservative), Calcium Propionate and/or
                              Sodium Propionate (Preservatives), Soy Lecithin, Sesame Seed.
                              CONTAINS: WHEAT AND SOY LECITHIN.
                              Big Mac Sauce:
                              Ingredients: Soybean Oil, Pickle Relish (Diced Pickles, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Sugar, Vinegar, Corn Syrup, Salt, Calcium Chloride, Xanthan Gum, Potassium
                              Sorbate [Preservative], Spice Extractives, Polysorbate 80), Distilled Vinegar, Water, Egg Yolks, High Fructose Corn Syrup, Onion Powder, Mustard Seed, Salt,
                              Spices, Propylene Glycol Alginate, Sodium Benzoate (Preservative), Mustard Bran, Sugar, Garlic Powder, Vegetable Protein (Hydrolyzed Corn, Soy and Wheat),
                              Caramel Color, Extractives of Paprika, Soy Lecithin, Turmeric (Color), Calcium Disodium EDTA (Protect Flavor).

                              So I randomly looked up one of the ingredients that I couldn't pronounce:
                              In the UK, the Health and Safety Executive has identified azodicarbonamide as a respiratory sensitizer (a possible cause of asthma) in workplace settings and determined that containers of it should be labeled with "May cause sensitisation by inhalation."[12] The World Health Organization has linked azodicarbonamide to "respiratory issues, allergies and asthma" for individuals at workplaces where azodicarbonamide is manufactured or handled in raw form. The available data are restricted to these occupational environments. Exposure of the general public to azodicarbonamide could not be evaluated because of the lack of available data
                              A friend looked up ACTUAL INGREDIENTS. Which no one here was able to do. Some weird sounding elements. What I'd now like to know is exactly what dosage of those elements is actually unsafe. Are they in trace amounts? We get daily doses of radioactivity from the sun, for example. But, people still live 86 years. So, just how bad are those preservatives, if the question. Are they so trivial that is doesn't matter? One drop of arsenic on a silo of wheat might not amount to anything. You also have toxic chemicals in your drinking water. Been drinking that for decades years, with no issues.

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                              • #75
                                Yes, because if you eat fast food, you are required to eat Ho-ho's.
                                Typical food snob with self-esteem & identity issues?

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