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  • #16
    Yep - there are even all kinds of theories out there about 'layering' your food intake based on the possible alkaline/acid balances created and which benefits one can derive from these combinations.

    I've never looked too deeply into it - I just know .........VEGGIE GOOD! EAT 'EM UP!

    What have you done today to make you feel Proud?

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    • #17
      The Globe and Mail is British, once removed. Never, ever, ever take culinary advice from the British. Especially regarding cooked vegetables

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      • #18
        I found an article about the acid/alcaline diet, but as I mentioned above its an old theory that has been around at least for thirty years or more; How too much cheese and meat can make your body dangerously acidic | Mail Online
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

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        • #19
          Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
          The Globe and Mail is British, once removed. Never, ever, ever take culinary advice from the British. Especially regarding cooked vegetables
          Hahahha thanks for the warning!

          I pretty sure variety is the way to go. No scientific backing, but some vegetables just taste aweful raw. Or are so fibrous you can't get to the nutrients anyway. There's definitely a point of overcooked though.

          I have always been fairly suspicious of the PH diet. Even when I was vegan I though it sounded quacky. Maybe similar the the GI diet; true on paper but not the complete story.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
            The Globe and Mail is British, once removed. Never, ever, ever take culinary advice from the British. Especially regarding cooked vegetables
            You have a problem with our SUPERB British cuisine? Our wide range of organic veg, our free range, organic meat? Free range chickens producing the best eggs EVER?
            Last edited by breadsauce; 05-02-2014, 12:48 AM.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by gdot View Post
              I just know .........VEGGIE GOOD! EAT 'EM UP!
              Just for the sake of the discussion, how do you know ?
              Personally, I don't know ... but I also don't care too much.
              French cuisine is basically good fats, proteins and starches. Veggies are used for flavor and aesthetic. I think they are sort of considered purely optional on a strict nutritional POV but French chefs would never do without them!! Cuisine is more than nutrition, it is a form of art that involves many senses, from preparation to digestion. You cannot ignore veggies in this art form. But if you are in a hurry, you can just focus on starches, proteins and good fats. And if you have enough animal based high quality ingredients, the micronutrition should be adequate.

              But anyway, nothing wrong with eating veggies, but I don't think they represent a MUST in terms of nutrition but again, what I think is very vague and not exactly based on science (my kids are not big fans of veggies even though they do eat some but anything starchy or from animals, that's another story).

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              • #22
                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                Meh. I generally wouldn't eat veggies for nutrition anyway (just for taste), because of the below factors. However, the "broken down cell wall" argument is not useful when referring to green smoothies made with high-speed blenders/juicers that break down cell walls anyway. TL;DR...eat the veggies however you want because they're more or less useless for micro nutrients.

                Plants are generally useless for most of the necessary MICRO nutrients we need. Maybe for fiber/RS/carbs (and obviously I don't underestimate the power of CARBZ), but aside from that...eat high quality dairy, meat, eggs, seafood, liver...and you're set micro nutrients-wise. Veggies may also be helpful for volumetric eating (you feel like you're eating a lot but you're really eating less) in terms of dieting.

                Some examples...Note I'm only going to cite some science journals that aren't related to any promotion of a way of diet (be it paleo, peat, vegetarian )

                Beta-carotene: Human body doesn't efficiently convert this into useful-to-human forms. (Also, according to Peat, this build-up of B-Carotene is supposedly very damaging when someone is hypothyroid). You might turn orange and you are STILL not OD-ing on Vitamin A for a good reason. The conversion from B-carotene to Vit A is painfully inefficient. The Absorption of Beta-Carotene and Its Conversion into Vitamin A

                Calcium/Iron: eating X grams of a mineral doesn't equate to absorbing X grams of a mineral. Also, plant forms of minerals are generally less "useful" to human beings than animal forms of minerals, because the minerals are typically found in a different oxidation state and bound to a vastly different protein in plants vs in animals. We absorb and can use WAY more minerals from animals than from plants.

                Choices for achieving adequate dietary calcium with a vegetarian diet (Calcium absorption efficiency table- you have to eat an ABSURD amount of calcium-rich veggies to equate to 1 serving of milk)
                factors affecting absorbing iron - General Practice Notebook (the various factors of iron absorption in human beings, suggesting eating plants for iron, all things considered, is extremely futile...since the efficiency in absorption is SO LOW for non heme iron).

                (Tangent: Also, the calcium study cited above actually explains The China Study a lot, since in that study the Chinese veggies had way more bioavailable calcium than the American counterparts...and the main "argument" for the China Study is that the Chinese don't drink that much milk and yet their rates of osteoporosis is much lower. Hence, vegans conclude...not drinking milk is better than drinking milk. They didn't account for the higher bioavailable calcium in Chinese veggies at all. )
                Thank you so much for the links, TQP. That calcium one is especially relevant to my interests. Going to start compiling all these awesome infoz and studying them well. If you don't mind me asking, do you have any other links that might be good for a vegetarian hoping to eat as well as possible? Or advise. You're so well-versed in this stuff
                Music of the day/week/month/whatever:

                K.A.A.N. - L.T.N. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWocmse1Ef4

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Nellodee View Post
                  a vegetarian hoping to eat as well as possible?
                  Bonjour,

                  eat a lot of pastured eggs and organic sustainable fish roe, eat high quality dairy (aged cheeses, fermented dairy).

                  Comment


                  • #24
                    Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                    Just for the sake of the discussion, how do you know ?
                    Personally, I don't know ... but I also don't care too much.
                    French cuisine is basically good fats, proteins and starches. Veggies are used for flavor and aesthetic. I think they are sort of considered purely optional on a strict nutritional POV but French chefs would never do without them!! Cuisine is more than nutrition, it is a form of art that involves many senses, from preparation to digestion. You cannot ignore veggies in this art form. But if you are in a hurry, you can just focus on starches, proteins and good fats. And if you have enough animal based high quality ingredients, the micronutrition should be adequate.

                    But anyway, nothing wrong with eating veggies, but I don't think they represent a MUST in terms of nutrition but again, what I think is very vague and not exactly based on science (my kids are not big fans of veggies even though they do eat some but anything starchy or from animals, that's another story).
                    My favorites are all only pseudo vegetables technically: tomatoes, chiles, avocados, squashes, peas... Or storage parts/carbier: carrots, onions, garlic, all potatoes... Or green; most any leaf!

                    When you categorize it like that, "veggies" do seem rather low on the priority list. Still, as much as meat is delicious, like you said, the contrast of meaty...meat(!) and the myriad of flavors and textures from plants is vital to the art. Similarly, veg on their own can be pretty dull, so probably they do need a little help from animal products to reach their full potential both flavor wise and nutritionally. Fermentation helps as well, so you're not only getting the (now rendered digestible) vegetable but the animal and bacterial benefits as well.

                    Is that a reason to eschew them entirely? Fruit is lacking in LOTS of essential nutrients and takes the backstage on most traditional cuisines, but you don't see anyone (anymore thank common sense) saying to put down that apple because it's not that good for you.

                    The simple answer would be, my body tells me vegetables are delicious, and they're a whole food that's not hijacking any pleasure/reward systems anymore than what good food should. To me, that means they must be good for something.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                      Just for the sake of the discussion, how do you know ?
                      Personally, I don't know ... but I also don't care too much.
                      French cuisine is basically good fats, proteins and starches. Veggies are used for flavor and aesthetic. I think they are sort of considered purely optional on a strict nutritional POV but French chefs would never do without them!! Cuisine is more than nutrition, it is a form of art that involves many senses, from preparation to digestion. You cannot ignore veggies in this art form. But if you are in a hurry, you can just focus on starches, proteins and good fats. And if you have enough animal based high quality ingredients, the micronutrition should be adequate.

                      But anyway, nothing wrong with eating veggies, but I don't think they represent a MUST in terms of nutrition but again, what I think is very vague and not exactly based on science (my kids are not big fans of veggies even though they do eat some but anything starchy or from animals, that's another story).
                      Food Republic: 10 Food Pyramids From Around The World

                      France's governmental guidelines include fruits, greens, legumes as the top step. Every nation represented includes fruits and veggies.

                      This description of the French diet includes fruits and vegetables.

                      http://www.webmd.com/diet/features/the-french-diet

                      My native Parisian coworker wouldn't eat lunch without a salad. This may be an N=1.

                      And, for the sake of discussion........my point is this needs no discussion.


                      For vibrant health, vegetable matter is required. And before anyone starts waxing poetic about the Inuit diet - be sure to understand that they ate vegetable matter too.
                      Last edited by gdot; 05-02-2014, 04:45 AM.
                      What have you done today to make you feel Proud?

                      Comment


                      • #26
                        @gdot
                        I was talking about the traditional french diet, not the gov guidelines.
                        When you look at the traditional diet (and regional differences are legion in France), you almost invariably find the following:
                        - starch
                        - animal fat
                        - protein
                        The green leafy salad is very common with every main meal. The main reason (I sort of believe) is to ingest some acetic acid. You would not find these salads without some form of simple dressing (vinegar / oil / salt / pepper). I grew up with such staple salads and dressing and had all in all liters of vinegar over my childhood years. But again, I am not saying that one should discard veggies, I am saying that it is not clear whether they are that necessary (I personally place fruits, including those that pass for veggies, above real veggies but that's my preference). Veggies add variety to a meal and for someone cooking, it is like increasing choices like a painter would expand a color palette or a musician expand harmonies. That's my opinion no matter what the gov recommends (look at the US gov recommendations ...)

                        And to close my post: I am not saying that one can discard plant matter, that is not AT ALL what I am saying. We are talking about real vegetables (not starchy ones, not fruity ones). Fruit and starchy tubers, etc, are plant matter (they are not animal matter as far as I know ) and I would not eat my meals without some form of plant matter on a regular basis.

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                        • #27
                          (Another) reason to cook your vegetables?

                          Originally posted by Nellodee View Post
                          Thank you so much for the links, TQP. That calcium one is especially relevant to my interests. Going to start compiling all these awesome infoz and studying them well. If you don't mind me asking, do you have any other links that might be good for a vegetarian hoping to eat as well as possible? Or advise. You're so well-versed in this stuff
                          Hey! So I actually found those studies last night because I roughly knew what I was searching (last night it was for various absorption efficiencies) for based on a biochem background. If you have a specific question, I would be more than happy to find links/studies!! Don't be afraid to pester me.

                          Basically, (peat is gonna hate me for saying this) you should find an iron source, but don't overdo it. Red meat is usually best for this, but you can just take a "natural" multivitamin for iron (that's all it's good for really) once or so a week (in absence of eating iron absorption prohibitors like dairy, legumes, soy, caffeine 2 hours before/after). That should keep your iron stores at a reasonable level. If you find out via tests your iron-related numbers are too high or too low, adjust the intake frequency. How efficient your body stores iron really depends person to person.

                          Other supplements you might consider: K2 and D3. Also, vitamin C (time release) if you are usually high in stress.

                          Eat 1-2 eggs on average a day for B vitamins. Consider taking a B-100 complex (time release!!).

                          Can you eat seafood? Or is that out? Oysters are very very good for nutrition purposes.

                          Tons of dairy. Raw is best... I tend to go for grassfed lightly pasteurized and not homogenized milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir.

                          Eat adequate protein. Even though I am not vegetarian, I get most of my protein from cottage cheese (look for a brand with just dairy, cultures, salt). Daisy, Friendship, and Key Food are all "clean" brands. Daisy is supposedly made from organic milk too.

                          Eat tons of fruits. As for veggies...meh IMO they are optional.

                          Like French fry, I tend to stray towards "fruit veggies": tomatoes, eggplants, cucumbers, bell peppers, etc. I eat a few others cooked for accent. I might eat 2-5 servings of veggies in a week total if you don't count raw carrots.

                          I basically eat vegetarian (aside from gelatin daily!) a lot of my days...maybe 3-4 days a week... Out of budget concerns (meat is expensive). I eat a ton of ripened bananas, mangoes, melons, grapes, berries along with dairy dairy dairy. I eat a dozen pastured eggs a week. I avoid nuts. I eat starches (rice, rice pasta, potatoes, gf oatmeal) post-lifting. I try follow a peat-ish way of eating. I also eat my red meats usually post lifting.
                          Last edited by TQP; 05-02-2014, 07:05 AM.
                          JOURNAL..
                          @BabesWithBBQ.
                          Gelatin/bone broth recipes blog.
                          Professional Style Website.
                          #TeamBrisket Shirts

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                          • #28
                            (Another) reason to cook your vegetables?

                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            I found an article about the acid/alcaline diet, but as I mentioned above its an old theory that has been around at least for thirty years or more; How too much cheese and meat can make your body dangerously acidic | Mail Online
                            Thank you. I have read these, but then I have also heard people being very dismissive of it, because of the blood's buffer system. However, all of the changes in enzyme conformation TO buffer the pH change might account for the dangers in itself... So hence I am on the fence.

                            The calcium/osteoporosis bit is new to me, so thank you! I will resume my ACV water supplementation.
                            Last edited by TQP; 05-02-2014, 11:24 AM.
                            JOURNAL..
                            @BabesWithBBQ.
                            Gelatin/bone broth recipes blog.
                            Professional Style Website.
                            #TeamBrisket Shirts

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              Originally posted by TQP View Post
                              Thank you. I have read these, but then I have also heard people being very dismissive of it, because of the blood's buffer system. However, all of the changes in enzyme conformation TO buffer the pH change might account for the dangers in itself... So hence I am on the fence.

                              The calcium/osteoporosis bit is new to me, so thank you! I will resume my ACV water supplementation.
                              Yeah, I do not buy the setup behind the alcaline/acidic diet, but I believe that there are some merits to eating alcaline foods such as vegetables and fruits to counterbalance all the acids from meat, diary, corn and other foods! Here an article that I found after a quick google search;

                              "Abstract
                              The concept of diet-induced ‘acidosis’ as a cause of disease has been a subject of interest for more than a century. The present article reviews the history of our evolving understanding of physiological pH, the physiological support for the concept of ‘acidosis’, the causes of acidosis, how it is recognised, its short-term effects as well as the long-term clinical relevance of preventative measures, and the research support for normalisation of pH. Further, we suggest differentiation of the terms ‘acidosis’ and ‘acidaemia’ as a way to resolve the conflation of these topics which has led to confusion and controversy. The available research makes a compelling case that diet-induced acidosis, not diet-induced acidaemia, is a real phenomenon, and has a significant, clinical, long-term pathophysiological effect that should be recognised and potentially counterbalanced by dietary means."

                              Cambridge Journals Online - British Journal of Nutrition - Abstract - Diet-induced acidosis: is it real and clinically relevant?
                              Last edited by Gorbag; 05-02-2014, 11:41 AM.
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                                Hey! So I actually found those studies last night because I roughly knew what I was searching (last night it was for various absorption efficiencies) for based on a biochem background. If you have a specific question, I would be more than happy to find links/studies!! Don't be afraid to pester me.
                                Hi!

                                Soooo happy to read this. People here give lots of great advice when you ask for it, but sometimes I feel kinda bad because sometimes they're like, "WTF NELL DO YOUR OWN RESEARCH!" and I'm like okay I'll shut up for a bit and read more.

                                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                                Basically, (peat is gonna hate me for saying this) you should find an iron source, but don't overdo it. Red meat is usually best for this, but you can just take a "natural" multivitamin for iron (that's all it's good for really) once or so a week (in absence of eating iron absorption prohibitors like dairy, legumes, soy, caffeine 2 hours before/after). That should keep your iron stores at a reasonable level. If you find out via tests your iron-related numbers are too high or too low, adjust the intake frequency. How efficient your body stores iron really depends person to person.
                                Other supplements you might consider: K2 and D3. Also, vitamin C (time release) if you are usually high in stress.

                                Eat 1-2 eggs on average a day for B vitamins. Consider taking a B-100 complex (time release!!). [/quote]

                                *writes it down*

                                Iron, vitamin C/B (complex, time release!), possibly K2 and D3 supplements. 1-2 eggs per day.

                                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                                Can you eat seafood? Or is that out? Oysters are very very good for nutrition purposes.
                                Seafood is out, sorry for being difficult.

                                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                                Tons of dairy. Raw is best... I tend to go for grassfed lightly pasteurized and not homogenized milk, cottage cheese, yogurt, kefir.

                                Eat adequate protein. Even though I am not vegetarian, I get most of my protein from cottage cheese (look for a brand with just dairy, cultures, salt). Daisy, Friendship, and Key Food are all "clean" brands. Daisy is supposedly made from organic milk too.
                                Uhm okay, this is my biggest problem and it's pretty huge. I have an intolerance to lactose (or something). Momma raised me on soy milk from a young age because of it. Even Kerrygold butter made my stomach feel bad. Other people suggested I try goat cheese and I tolerated that well enough but it was pretty gross. After the Whole30 May I was thinking I'd play around a lot with different kinds of dairy (honestly haven't given it much of a chance in years because of what it's done to me in the past) to see what works and what doesn't. Guess before I dismiss this awesome advice entirely I should do the experimenting. Lemme get back to you in a month or two, writing down those foods listed.

                                Originally posted by TQP View Post
                                Eat tons of fruits. As for veggies...meh IMO they are optional.

                                Like French fry, I tend to stray towards "fruit veggies": tomatoes, eggplants, cucumbers, bell peppers, etc. I eat a few others cooked for accent. I might eat 2-5 servings of veggies in a week total if you don't count raw carrots.

                                I basically eat vegetarian (aside from gelatin daily!) a lot of my days...maybe 3-4 days a week... Out of budget concerns (meat is expensive). I eat a ton of ripened bananas, mangoes, melons, grapes, berries along with dairy dairy dairy. I eat a dozen pastured eggs a week. I avoid nuts. I eat starches (rice, rice pasta, potatoes, gf oatmeal) post-lifting. I try follow a peat-ish way of eating. I also eat my red meats usually post lifting.
                                Got it, lots of fruit. Usually I'm not much for fruit and mostly enjoy veggies but they're not bad or anything. Those are good fruit veggies you listed too; when I say I mostly eat veggies I mean bell peppers and tomatoes lol. Also leafy greens I guess.

                                I don't move much. My exercise is limited to yoga a couple times per week and some light walks to the grocery store. It's hard enough managing that, and progress is slow. Does this make a difference? Maybe I should eat fewer fruit foods, as I know some recommend regardless.

                                Thanks so much!
                                Music of the day/week/month/whatever:

                                K.A.A.N. - L.T.N. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kWocmse1Ef4

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