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  • Originally posted by Hilary View Post
    What is a 'vegan cookie'? It sounds as though it would be a cookie without butter, but that can't be right.
    Organic compost?
    Primal since April 2012 Male 6' 3" SW 345lbs CW 240lbs GW 220lbs and when I get there I am getting a utlikilt. This one http://www.utilikilts.com/company/pr...ilts/workmans/ actually.

    Join me at www.paleoplanet.net, where all the cavemen hang out.

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    • What's really sad is when you are in your 50s and have to watch your vegetarian and semi-vegetarian (meat as a condiment) friends get sicker and sicker, weaker and weaker, brain foggier and brain foggier.
      Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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      • Originally posted by Nourished View Post
        I don't understand the contempt for vegans here. I know that they eat differently than paleo folks, but I'd think people would find some common ground in the fact that many vegans eat consciously to promote their health or the health of animals and the environment. So many people around the world just hoover up whatever food they see without a thought. Vegans, like folks here, are just trying to navigate our broken food system in the best way the can. Misguided? Of course, but many here are also misguided on various issues.
        Hey, it's a free country and people can do what they want. The contempt is mostly because we get vegan trolls over here, really with no understanding of what paleo/primal is, preaching their bullshit with bad studies thinking that they're making valid points. 90% of the time, they're not. I would further disagree with your point that vegans "eat consciously to promote their health or the health of animals and the environment". In a lot of cases these are either people that don't like the taste or texture of meat or are animal lovers and can't bear the thought of an animal dying so that they can eat or even producing milk. Clearly, the industrialization of the food system is a problem and almost all of us are conscious of that and try to work around it. Bottom line, eat all the vegetables you want. Don't want to eat meat? Don't eat meat. There should really be a new term for people that just want to eat PB&Js and fritos because that's where a lot of "vegans" are.

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        • "I would further disagree with your point that vegans "eat consciously to promote their health or the health of animals and the environment"
          I have to agree with this - I have a vegan friend who smokes and drinks Coke zero- very big into animal welfare - thinks her vegan diet will protect her from all sorts of woes - but doen't take much care in what she eats as long as it is vegan - she thinks the fact she is vegan, it doesn't matter what she eats as long as it is vegan will protect her.. She has severe mood swings and takes more time off due to exhaustion than anyone I know but thinks she is healthy.

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          • My experience is that there are a lot of vegetarians or vegans who talk about how nutrition-conscious vegetarians or vegans are, and how they all eat a healthy diet. The vegetarians or vegans I know eat pretty much the same sort of diet they did before giving up meat and other animal products. If they ate mostly processed foods, they still do. If they did all their own cooking, they still do.

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            • Old habits die hard?

              M.

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              • Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                Old habits die hard?
                It's a lot more complex than that.

                We have to look at why people choose to go vegan, because different people have different reasons.

                And beyond that, we need to look at how our ancestors used to choose the food they ate. As humans, we are pre-programmed to choose the foods that would taste best to us from what was available. When we need something, our bodies create cravings, and thus those are the things that would absolutely hit the spot. And so humans evolved to eat for pleasure.

                That is our instinct. There were no philosophical, ethical, or theoretical nutrition considerations. Just eat what will taste best.

                Of course, instincts in humans are weak. We all know lots of people who clearly don't care what they put in their mouths as long as it makes the hunger go away. Easy access to ready-to-eat processed foods makes it easier for people like this to survive than if they had to hunt or gather regularly to live.

                Instincts are also easily overridden by culture. In our case this is a culture that sends out lots of contradictory messages about how we should decide what we should eat.

                Once there was something that might be considered a "national diet" or cuisine. Now, the very concept has been erased from cultural memory. Now there are only foods with varying moral values. Eat lots of the top 10 superfoods. Don't eat X or Y, it's evil to eat them, it makes you a murderer. This food is "fattening", only morally weak people eat it.

                People who choose to eat what they want based on what their bodies are telling them are considered irrational or ignorant. Scientists will tell us what we should eat. Or some moral or political leader. Or some doctor who is a television star hawking questionable diet products.

                Where vegans fit in this is that people who are willing to change their diet for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with eating enjoyment are on the end of the "food as pleasure" spectrum. They don't feel any connection between food and pleasure. They think we are wrong to use pleasure as a criteria for choosing food, because even if they do experience food cravings, they stifle them with willpower, and think we all should do that, too. And that's a disordered eating behavior.

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                • @eKatherine,

                  I'd agree with you except that I think our instinct drives us to choose calorie dense foods- sweet, fattening, etc. more than anything else. Processed foods have hijacked these instincts so we naturally reach for doritos and oreos instead of an apple or a piece of liver. Processed foods create disordered eating behaviors because we are compelled by our instincts to eat them but they make us sick. I agree that food has become ethically fraught territory and we have suffered for it. That's why I don't eat 100% paleo or 100% anything. I try to eat intuitively and balanced.
                  My food philosophy is whole foods, simply and traditionally prepared. Food should honor your taste, health, and the environment.

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                  • Originally posted by Elliot View Post
                    I think it's easy to find people who do well on vegan diets, but not necessarily long-term. You can find plenty of first-hand accounts of people who tried veganism and their story goes something like this:

                    "I became vegan. I felt great. Everything was excellent. Then I felt progressively worse. Eventually I ate meat again and now I feel better."

                    If you catch those people in the beginning of their journey, they make veganism look good.
                    Some famous long-term vegans would include T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. John McDougall. My best friend saw McDougall in Houston a couple of weeks ago looking very healthy. He publishes a monthly newsletter with studies to back up his claims. He also archives them on his website if anyone is interested in the science. I'm just giving information here. You make up your own mind.

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                    • I think there are some people who are better physiologically suited to a vegan diet than the average person. They are outliers.

                      It is also true that there are long-term vegans who have occasional binges and indiscretions. I recall reading a story by someone who attended a vegan conference of some sort. After the conference, he was waiting in a restaurant at the airport and saw a raw vegan icon fresh from the conference tucking into a steak.

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                      • Originally posted by Beachgirl View Post
                        I'm just giving information here. You make up your own mind.
                        You are pushing a personal agenda, so just accept that's who you are, there's nothing neutral about what you write.
                        "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                        • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                          Where vegans fit in this is that people who are willing to change their diet for reasons that have nothing whatever to do with eating enjoyment are on the end of the "food as pleasure" spectrum. They don't feel any connection between food and pleasure. They think we are wrong to use pleasure as a criteria for choosing food, because even if they do experience food cravings, they stifle them with willpower, and think we all should do that, too. And that's a disordered eating behavior.
                          funnily enough, we were having "dinner" at a raw vegan place the other night. it's a block away, musician friends play there often so we do go a few times per month and tbh, the salads are delicious. the owner prefers to hire vegetarians and everybody that works there is pale and sickly thin with very dry hair.

                          i don't know that vegetarians divorce themselves from eating pleasure. when i ate that way, meat really didn't taste all that good to me, so while i did NOT enjoy eating it, and never craved it, i LOVED a big pile of garlicky lentils. i also felt a sense of superiority because i totally knew that meat and fat were bad bad bad and would kill you dead.

                          i think arrogance is a much greater factor than asceticism.


                          Originally posted by Beachgirl View Post
                          Some famous long-term vegans would include T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. John McDougall. My best friend saw McDougall in Houston a couple of weeks ago looking very healthy. He publishes a monthly newsletter with studies to back up his claims. He also archives them on his website if anyone is interested in the science. I'm just giving information here. You make up your own mind.
                          somebody being thin is no indication of health. i was a twig as a vegetarian but constantly sick.

                          as for studies backing up anybody's claims? i can find all sorts of papers telling me they have PROOF 9/11 was an inside job and the moon-landing was faked.
                          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                          Ernest Hemingway

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                          • Whilst I was (and still) rarely ill and quite the fatass!

                            M.

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                            • Originally posted by Beachgirl View Post
                              Some famous long-term vegans would include T. Colin Campbell, Caldwell Esselstyn and Dr. John McDougall. My best friend saw McDougall in Houston a couple of weeks ago looking very healthy. He publishes a monthly newsletter with studies to back up his claims. He also archives them on his website if anyone is interested in the science. I'm just giving information here. You make up your own mind.
                              McDougall actually strikes me as the most reasonable vegan advocate, even if he comes across as personally crazy. From the videos I've watched and articles I've read, the foods he recommend form the bulk of the diet are plenty healthy: beans, sweet potatoes, corn, rice. There's nary a mention of wheat, which is refreshing coming from a community that seems to pride itself on eating as much wheat as possible. McDougall + meat is a fine diet, if you ask me.

                              Or maybe I just like him because he looks like Gary Taubes.
                              Last edited by Timthetaco; 04-29-2014, 08:19 PM.

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                              • I have a lot of respect for Dr McDougall, who passionately cares about health; not just for himself, his family or even his personal patients. He extends his resources for free and also hosts Advanced Study Weekends, where top speakers, not all plant based give a mini-conference. His wish is to create a legacy of better health for humanity and he has worked for decades to this end. He is stridently anti-paleo and outspoken on this point. Believes that fat + meat make people fat and sick.

                                Other docs I admire for their integrity: Dr Neal Barnard, a great health advocate and a charming speaker. Also Dr Alan Goldhamer, who has a water fasting centre that seems to be a helpful intervention for peeps coming off SAD in a controlled way. Dr Goldhamer is pretty feisty in attitude and insists that dairy and meat are bad for humans.

                                Also co-conceived the book 'Pleasure Trap' with psychologist Doug Lisle. Which regardless of dietary orientation gives insight into the primal desire for calorie dense food and illuminates the junk food conumdrum - we know it makes us unwell and we can't stop eating it!

                                Dr McDougall's protocols worked for me for a short while; I lost 14lbs and then multiple sensitivities arose. I was unable to eat legumes and most of the protein rich grains and pseudo-grains, white potatoes. Was left with few starchy options and large nutritional gaps. I can't say whether or not that diet caused or revealed the sensitivities.
                                Live in the sunshine, swim the sea, drink the wild air
                                Ralph Waldo Emerson

                                Journal: Vibrant Life

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