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Sugar definitely worst thing say same people who said it was definitely fat

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  • Originally posted by TQP View Post
    You aren't studying anything. You have yet to cite a single study. You have yet to list any biochemical and or genetic mechanism that suggest we should eat lower carb and most meat/fat. You are just making personal attacks and citing your own paleo fantasies.
    :/ http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849...ade-us-smarter

    You want more? Oh and I already posted a link for Chaco
    Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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    • Originally posted by Primal Moose View Post
      I am not saying that any of that is wrong. What I am saying is that they would not have been able to procure animals on a daily basis and when they did, fat and offal was not going to be as significant a portion of any one individuals calories like some people that delusionally romanticize the time period make it out to be. They had to divide it among the whole tribe and everybody only got a small portion of those most prized parts. I am also saying they were going to eat every available edible plant calorie that they could. That would mean gorging themselves on fruits or tubers or anything else that they found whenever they could. For the majority of the planet, there is some amount of edible plant material available year round, and some of it could be stored (much more easily than animal products, for primitive man).
      Just how long do you think it takes to eat a biffalo or even a mammoth, esp if you include fish and whatever plants they could get? Btw You a hunter?
      Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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      • My diet is high in Lorenzo's Oil and I've been healthier than ever!

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        • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
          :/ http://www.npr.org/2010/08/02/128849...ade-us-smarter

          You want more? Oh and I already posted a link for Chaco
          That isn't a *scientific* study. It's one dude talking a lot without any sources...One dude suggesting our ancestors had to eat some meat who is actually almost vegan himself (potatoes and mangoes) from what I scanned.

          He didn't say we had to rely on meat. He said we ate cooked food, including meat. He didn't say we had to be low carb, or get a majority of our calories from meat. I personally eat SOME cooked meat too.

          So this doesn't prove your point at all, even if this WAS a scientific study, which it's not.
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          • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
            Just how long do you think it takes to eat a biffalo or even a mammoth, esp if you include fish and whatever plants they could get? Btw You a hunter?
            Amongst a whole tribe? It would not have lasted long. But that is not the point. Seriously, do you just not read? Let's just say that by the time that all the meat is gone, they've killed another animal. I have repeatedly said that the offal and fat stores, that so many people on this forum think made up the mainstay of the diet, would have been gone right away and would have been divided up amongst a whole tribe, making up an actual small part of the overall diet.

            Does that mean that those parts aren't more nutritious than muscle meat? No. Does that mean that we, who have the ability to eat offal on a regular basis shouldn't? No. I eat about equal parts lean meat and offal with plenty of marrow or gelatinous bones and joints sprinkled in. However, I do that because I have read enough and, more importantly, self-experimented enough to decide that those animal products plus fruit and tubers is the healthiest option for ME at this point in my life. Not because I have a delusional view of my ancestors and that all of humanity should eat this way. Some people do miraculously on HFLC, some don't. I like ancestral diets as a starting point. I'm just saying that we need to have a realistic view of our ancestors and why they ate what they ate and then find what truly works for us as individuals to optimally meet your goals...and that means that an athlete will eat differently from a pencil pusher from someone who is seeking to reach 120 years old. And there will be further variations within those groups. But as long as people remain fat-phobic or carb-phobic or anything else, people won't find what works optimally for them.

            HFLC worked for me, to a point. Then I added more fruits and tubers and white rice as an experiment and did even better. But it took me a long time to get over that phobia.

            And, as I have previously stated in this thread. Yes. I am a hunter. Deer, boar, small game, and most birds legal to shoot in northern CA..hopefully my first bear this year, as well.
            Last edited by Primal Moose; 03-09-2014, 11:23 PM.

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            • Okay, maybe I did. It was a long time ago and there was a lot of stuff going on in my private life that I donít want to talk about. Anyway. Itís definitely sugar. Or protein...
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              Jenny Fierce
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              • Just a thing...I don't know how big mastadon or mammoth oogly bits were, but if they're anything like an elephant today in mass, there's plenty to go about. African Elephant bits:

                Liver: 77kg
                Heart: 22kg

                Couldn't find any stats for the other organs. These guys weigh 7 tons though, so...yeah.

                Heart and liver alone, if your tribe was 100 people, gets you about a kilo of heart/liver bits per elephant per person. Then you have the muscle meat, which is pretty massive. Bones, etc...though cracking open an elephant bone (and by extension, maybe mastadon or mammoth bones) is probably pretty crazy.

                M.

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                • Originally posted by TQP View Post
                  That isn't a *scientific* study. It's one dude talking a lot without any sources...One dude suggesting our ancestors had to eat some meat who is actually almost vegan himself (potatoes and mangoes) from what I scanned.

                  He didn't say we had to rely on meat. He said we ate cooked food, including meat. He didn't say we had to be low carb, or get a majority of our calories from meat. I personally eat SOME cooked meat too.

                  So this doesn't prove your point at all, even if this WAS a scientific study, which it's not.
                  No these sources are only written by professional opinion with lengthy bibliographies to studies

                  http://www.scientificamerican.com/ar...-meat-excerpt/

                  http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/133/11/3886S.long
                  Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Owen View Post
                    Do you understand how much sugar is in the average fizzy soda?
                    yap. yap.

                    Originally posted by Owen View Post
                    This is so far away from naturally occurring sugars in roots and fruits to be as good as eating sugar form the bag. Another example: Boiled sweets: Almost entirely sugar.
                    ehhhh, it's not iso. a reg. coke doesn't taste like a tablespoon of sugar.

                    i'm still not seeing what's bad about it (assuming they aren't drank into excess)
                    Last edited by Dann; 03-10-2014, 07:50 AM.

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                    • Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
                      Just a thing...I don't know how big mastadon or mammoth oogly bits were, but if they're anything like an elephant today in mass, there's plenty to go about. African Elephant bits:

                      Liver: 77kg
                      Heart: 22kg

                      Couldn't find any stats for the other organs. These guys weigh 7 tons though, so...yeah.

                      Heart and liver alone, if your tribe was 100 people, gets you about a kilo of heart/liver bits per elephant per person. Then you have the muscle meat, which is pretty massive. Bones, etc...though cracking open an elephant bone (and by extension, maybe mastadon or mammoth bones) is probably pretty crazy.

                      M.
                      Makes me sort of wonder how long ago products like pemmican came into existence? I've not really looked into extensively. I would assume though that it would not take long after we began cooking meat to note that the rendered fat did not spoil. How long from there until we started putting it in animal pouches and preserving bits of meat or berries and such in it? This and fermentatiom would seem to be the oldest forms of preservation available for tens of thousands of years in my estimation.

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                      • Originally posted by Dann View Post
                        still,
                        i'm still not seeing what's bad about it (assuming they aren't drank into excess)
                        So you are saying that year 1901 levels of ingestion should be OK in a caloric deficit? Ummmm, that's all well and good, but that is not our current reality.

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                        • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          So you are saying that year 1901 levels of ingestion should be OK in a caloric deficit? Ummmm, that's all well and good, but that is not our current reality.
                          Not understanding the question

                          mind if ya re word it? por favor

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                          • The past 5 pages of this thread is why "paleo" is a laughing stock in legitimate scientific communities and will never reach mainstream success. Which is probably for the best judging by how inept many of its followers are.

                            Scott, I like how you are the tome of knowledge of what our ancestors ate. You don't have a shred of evidence to back up anything you're saying other than blog posts from people that fall in line with your exact (incorrect) line of thinking). We have no idea what your health or physical conditions are, but you have lots of hypotheticals and incorrect assumptions. Let's take our advice from you.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                            • It's true that sugar has been around a long time but the quantities that are consumed today by average people is pretty new. If you go back 100 yrs, people were not sipping sweet drinks all day, desserts were not an everyday thing and people did not snack on candy. Bananas were not commonly available and apples were a sweet treat only seasonable available. And the only fats used in cooking were animal, so things are pretty different today.
                              Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                              • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                                Yup, take those puppies and put em in the 64oz 7/11 big guzzler and let people sip on them all day long non stop. Perfect storm of a constant fed state and a extraordinary HFCS load. Crappy seed oils don't get a pass, but to overlook this would be just criminal.

                                Oh, and regardless of macro ratios...vending machines, fast food, convenience marts all contributing to that never ending "fed" state. I know you're a fan of this line of thought as well
                                I was happy to just fuck with the PUFA pushers in this thread, but now that you've asked I might clarify my thoughts on this whole obesity and metabolic syndrome crisis.

                                Every one has an opinion. It's carbs, no it's refined carbs, no it's HFCS's ,no it's PUFA's, no its the calories, no its the sedentary lifestyle, your not satiating with fat, etc, etc, they're all wrong. hell even the people who say everyone's different and we all need different solutions are wrong. My body is at least 99.99% similar to all you whom are reading this.

                                So what is it then? what is going wrong?

                                Its long winded but here goes. Hunger, food, nourishment it is the second most important thing to our lives behind air wich is constantly available. Your worried about your job, family, life, friends, money? Your body is worried about food, water and air. Food is so intrinsic to our behavioral patterns and our life choices, that it gets mostly forgoten by us in the white noise of far more but lesser impactful decisions. So in short, food is a big deal to us.
                                Whats the easiest way to train a dolphin or a dog? with food of course. Why does your cat form a bond with you and stays at your place? because it knows where the food comes from. Food reward, its massive, Sugary, Salty or Fatty foods (not sure if some reward better than others) are like drugs to us. Infact the reason recreational drugs become addictive is because they hijack the food reward systems our brains holdover from survival times.

                                So a large problem (half) with obesity is fighting ourselfs to disregard our food reward (and other) systems that are so entrenched in our psyche from the importance our bodies give to food. Why do we have to Fight these food choices? because there are some smart pricks somewhere, getting paid big bucks to deliver foods to our convenience, that trigger our reward systems in the biggest, quickest way possible. These food "engineers" don't usually give a stuff about the quality of the food, the only concern is that we are willing to pay alot of money to satisfy our primeval urges. This means our bodies default state is to eat the most rewarding food. Those of us that want to be healthy have to fight these urges fight the default state.



                                Alot of people stop there in their explanation of obesity, but i believe there is another (probably more important) factor at play. and it explains the carb and sugar phenomenon (lose weight by controlling sugar). here goes....

                                Our body's whole metabolism is run off only ONE determining factor, that is Blood Glucose levels. If it is at a certain level, certain things happen, if it is at a different level, different things happen. Basically one can say our metabolism aims to bring BG back to a basal level if it is detected to be away from that level. If our body detects BG above basal it stores all the energy and nutrients it can in various cells, if it detects below basal, it breaks down what ever it can into glucose or glucose sparing fuel (fats, ketones). These conditions are called anabolic (above basal) and catabolic (below basal) conditions. Our body is either anabolic or catabolic or switching over at all times. The ideal picture of human health is when neither of these 2 states are dominant, an example of dominant anabolic is an obese person, an example of a dominant catabolic state is a marathon runner or starving third worlder.

                                A person becomes obese because their bodies spend more time storing excess fuels in fat cells and other cells than they do breaking down those cells (obvious right?) but why does it store that energy? because it has detected higher glucose than basal in the blood<<< the only reason. The only way we can get excess glucose in the blood is by eating carbs, if we eat protein the body wont go into excess glucose too much because when it goes anabolic the body can no longer break down the aminos in the blood into glucose (catabolic process), eating fats wont put the body into above basal BG either. Ok this dont make us obese right? we can just wait till BG drops and go catabolic to release all the energy we stored from when we were anabolic (a few hours after our meal).

                                This is where I think the problem lies... I think because of the easy availability of food and its importance to us, with all our hunger signalling and food reward, the Anabolic/ catabolic balance gets hijacked by our own inherent laziness. Yes we are hardwired to take the easy route, the most energy conserving route. I believe what happens is that over time our bodies instead of tapping into our catabolic processes to arrest below basal BG, we (the fatties) get into the habit of just re-adding glucose to the blood by way of the mouth/stomach. This leads us to seek out foods that will re-raise our blood glucose (ie carbs and sugars). Conveniently those same food engineers realize this and have added a carb component to almost every factory produced food on the planet. All fast food joints have carbs in/with their meals, they mightn't be the largest macro present but they are there. combine this with the hyper palatable, hyper available foods mentioned above and you got a perfect storm of obesity and metabolic derangement.

                                If you want to reduce weight you have to start using your catabolic cycles again, infact you need to be in a daily catabolic excess <<< this is absolutely the only way to lose weight. You can't lose an ounce if your not in a catabolic state (ie BG below basal). This is why the primal blue print is so successful, because it basically helps you to retrain to use Glucagon (your catabolic hormone) again. The major blow ups you see from people on primal come because they are already catabolic more than enough, and are making themselfs more catabolic by reducing carbs.
                                A little primal gem - My Success Story
                                Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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