Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Health issues with keto-adapting, need advice?

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Health issues with keto-adapting, need advice?

    Hi all, Just started a ketogenic diet plan for the second time. About one week in now compared to a month on the prior attempt to maintain low carb lifestyle. However just like the first time I tried this, I have been having a few unfortunate physical reactions to the diet.

    First of all the amount of visible red veins in my eye white has gone up dramatically; it looks like I'm stoned while I'm not and they also feel more sensitive to bright light and wind.

    Secondly dry skin and lips have become a major problem, especially the peeling lips are really annoying.Thirdly, despite taking 400mg mag citrate spread out in two doses over the day and adding himalayan salt + lo salt water solutions of about 5g per day I get these cramps around the back of my knee right at the top of the lower leg. Hydration is also good at about 2-3 litres a day.

    I have a theory that this may be due to a mucin deficiency, where the body scavenges glycin and prolin amino acids from the mucous membranes to engage them in glucaneogenesis. So in the mean time I think it's about time I change out the salt solutions for proper bone broth to supplement collagen containing glycin and prolin in high ammounts. Any idea on this theory or other potential ideas on what may be causing this? Greatly appreciate any help I can get.

    Peace out, Simon

  • #2
    You need more potassium. I'm not sure you'll get enough from the Himalayan salt. I've started doing half and half salt and potassium chloride. You might also want to see what happens when you double magnesium. I was doing 400 and upped to 800mg.

    I also do bone broth, so that might be helping me as well.

    The eye stuff sounds strange. You might want to talk to a doctor about that.
    Last edited by miata; 02-24-2014, 12:18 PM. Reason: added magnesium

    Comment


    • #3
      Low carb will most likely affect your ability to produce mucous as it contains sugars and these will be requisitioned for the brain. You may end up with dry eyes and stomach issues. Eat some carbs so that your body can relax. If you want to be ketogenic then at least cycle carbs so that you don't give yourself these problems.Dangers of Zero-Carb Diets, II: Mucus Deficiency and Gastrointestinal Cancers - Perfect Health Diet | Perfect Health Diet
      Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
      www.primaljoy.co.uk

      Comment


      • #4
        I guess my question is what is your motivation behind wanting to be in ketosis?

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Mr. Anthony View Post
          I guess my question is what is your motivation behind wanting to be in ketosis?
          Definitely the enhanced BDNF levels in the hippocampus, reduced ROS and stabilized mood and energy levels. Overall it just seems like the most stable state for the human metabolism. I'm in it for longevity and intellectual enhancement.

          Even though there are no long term studies indicating that people on ketogenic diets live longer at the moment it seems to me that primal hunter gatherer tribes in the ice time would have spent up to 80% of their lives in ketosis with the other 20% not spent in ketosis solely serving as a way to store up the fat that would protect them in the harsher winters.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by miata View Post
            You need more potassium. I'm not sure you'll get enough from the Himalayan salt. I've started doing half and half salt and potassium chloride. You might also want to see what happens when you double magnesium. I was doing 400 and upped to 800mg.

            I also do bone broth, so that might be helping me as well.

            The eye stuff sounds strange. You might want to talk to a doctor about that.
            Lo salt does contain 66% potassium chloride and 33% sodium chloride and I have an additional avocado a day. I will try and take double doses of magnesium see if it helps but I am hesitant to step to a doctor seeing as most GP's in my country have zero experience with low carb diets and still wholly buy into the outdated dogma that they are all unhealthy. IF only there was a platform over here to find out where these low carb specialists are like you guys have over in America :/

            Comment


            • #7
              So you've done your homework and still asking why you shouldn't go on a ketogenic diet? You've read PHD and the mucin argument. Why do you think you have red eyes? Your eyes are dry because of lack of moistrue and when you rub them or when eyelids close, they cause inflammation due to increased abrasion and friction. People with dry eyes, like those with Sjogren's, often have red eyes and conjunctivitis. Why do you think your skin and lips are dry? Those are just as PHD has explained them: moisture evaporates when you go ketogenic. Some of the constipation and slow transit encountered are also caused by lack of moisture in your colon and peristalsis. Those are the ones we know about. Let's ignore what it will do to your small intestine, which might develop leaky gut, and the large intestine, which should be full of gut microbes.

              You've swallowed Dave Asprey's Paleo rabbit's foot theory. Ketosis does not induce longevity. It does not raise your IQ as Dave claims. There is also no metabolic advantage associated with ketosis. Ketosis is purely a satiety-inducing diet that will make you eat less calories. There is no inherent magic to ketosis. It is also not a natural state. Intermittent ketosis is perhaps natural but not full-time long-term ketosis.

              But you've read all the cautionary tales and still want to go ahead. What I'd do is do a baseline blood test of all of your hormones, including cortisol, T3, DHEA, FT, etc. so that you can compare them after you've dysregulated them 12-24 months down the road. The difference, I guarantee you, will be eye-opening. And then post them here so we can all see what it did to your hormones. Just don't disappear like many of these guys do, rubbing their cold hands.

              Originally posted by iceyed View Post
              Hi all, Just started a ketogenic diet plan for the second time. About one week in now compared to a month on the prior attempt to maintain low carb lifestyle. However just like the first time I tried this, I have been having a few unfortunate physical reactions to the diet.
              Last edited by Whiskey Bar; 02-24-2014, 05:23 PM.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Whiskey Bar View Post
                You've swallowed Dave Asprey's Paleo rabbit's foot theory. Ketosis does not induce longevity. It does not raise your IQ as Dave claims. There is also no metabolic advantage associated with ketosis. Ketosis is purely a satiety-inducing diet that will make you eat less calories. There is no inherent magic to ketosis. It is also not a natural state. Intermittent ketosis is perhaps natural but not full-time long-term ketosis.

                But you've read all the cautionary tales and still want to go ahead. What I'd do is do a baseline blood test of all of your hormones, including cortisol, T3, DHEA, FT, etc. so that you can compare them after you've dysregulated them 12-24 months down the road. The difference, I guarantee you, will be eye-opening. And then post them here so we can all see what it did to your hormones. Just don't disappear like many of these guys do, rubbing their cold hands.
                I don't listen or read any of Dave Asprey's material. As far as I'm concerned the dude is only out to sell gullible people his 'only one safe' coffee in the world. I base my beliefs on the books I've read by Volek, Phinney and Perlmutter. Seeing as no other scientists have done anywhere near as much research on ketogenic diets as Volek and Phinney, I am more inclined to give credence to their viewpoint on the hypothyroid ketosis association accusation, which follows here:

                However, two of the top low-carb nutritional health researchers in the world ó Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek ó say this phenomenon with low thyroid while on a low-carbohydrate diet promoted by people in the Paleo community like Kresser and Paul Jaminet is ďa mythĒ and has not manifested itself in any of the research subjects in their numerous studies of people who are properly following a well-formulated low-carb diet with adequate calories over the past three decades. Dr. Phinney believes the primary point of contention revolves around consuming an adequate amount of calories with your low-carbohydrate nutritional intake in order to normalize thyroid and metabolic function without the necessity for consuming added sources of dietary glucose. Dr. Volek concurs stating that itís calorie-restriction that brings on this low thyroid effect, not limiting carbohydrates.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Sam did a nice write up on the thyroid hormone bit a while back. Paul even commented I believe:

                  https://aworldlymonk.wordpress.com/2...a-false-alarm/

                  Seems like you know this stuff for the most part OP if you have read Phinney and Volek, but there are these two posts as well:

                  http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/k...low-carb-pt-i/

                  http://www.proteinpower.com/drmike/s...ow-carb-pt-ii/

                  If you're still having issues and your doing all this stuff, then hey it may just not be for you right now. There is likely a percentage of people that can't thrive in this manner. Might consider cyclical ketogenic with weekly carb re-feeds or something along those lines if your still looking for some of the same effects.

                  Basically those symptoms are saying you are not thriving. Perhaps its a simple tweak. But if not your best off just eating some carbs. You don't have to take an IV to your arm and mainline maple syrup....just up em a bit and monitor.
                  Last edited by Neckhammer; 02-24-2014, 08:05 PM.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Oh, you're bringing the big guns out, Volek and Phinney. If you believe in Volek & Phinney, why did you bring up those symptoms? Surely, V&P can't be wrong? Maybe they'll go away once you're keto-adapted. You're a complex man, iceyed. One foot in the door to go full-blast ketogenic but clearly intimidated and held back by its purportedly dire health consequences.

                    Let me tell you why that is a sophistic argument by V&P. By saying adequate calories will protect you from hypothyroid symptoms, they're admitting that a ketogenic diet will induce hypothyroidism. They're attributing hypothyroidism to hypocalories (it is only partly correct). In the absence of carbs, protein and fat will induce satiety and make your food intake hypocaloric. That’s all the secret there is to a ketogenic diet. If V&P are right, you had better count damn calories every meal, since the ordinary mechanism of unprocessed foods inducing satiety cannot be trusted. And if you can't eat any more, you had better sip some extra virgin coconut oil or olive oil, lest you become hypocaloric. If you fall short, you might have to force-feed some fatty oils like a goose being force-fed corn to produce foie gras. Even if that makes you nauseous.

                    Do you know how flawed this argument is? Do you think it's an optimal or natural diet where you can't trust your own satiety mechanism and have to act like a beancounter every meal? Is it sustainable long-term? This is actually an evolving position of the low-carbers. When these guys first came on the scene, they ignored all such claims. They acted like iconoclasts. Then, when they were cornered by accusations of hypothyroid symptoms, they coined this convenient argument to lay blame on the dieters unwittingly consuming less calories than they should. In other words, there is nothing wrong with the ketogenic diet. The dieters are at fault. In fact, the diet is so damn good, it makes you eat so little that you actually start displaying symptoms of starvation and malnutrition!

                    The truth, iceyed, is that people will go out of their way to eat carbs. Restricting a macronutrient that way is a contrived satiety mechanism for weight loss that may be effective short-term but have health consequences long-term. And carb restriction by itself induces myriad symptoms, among which are your very own. These are symptoms of carb deficiency, to the chagrin of V&P, who would like them to be caloric deficiency. They have to because they’re knee-deep in this thing. To admit they’re wrong would be 35 years down the drain for Phinney, who’s been digging a hole from which he cannot crawl out of since the 1980s. New research is coming down the pike regarding the human microbiome and hormones, about their reliance on a diet with sufficient fiber and starchy vegetables, how gut bacteria regulate not only hormones but the immune system and leaky gut. Even if hypothyroidism were due to hypocalories, there are reasons why carb deficiency by itself will induce hormonal dysregulation and other complications. The only ones ignoring such research and behaving like ostriches are V&P and gullible people on this board.

                    But you don’t have to listen to this. Go for it! Just report back after 12-24 months and tell us how your hormones are doing. Why do I suspect that the only thing that will be up is your cortisol.

                    Originally posted by iceyed View Post
                    However, two of the top low-carb nutritional health researchers in the world — Dr. Stephen Phinney and Dr. Jeff Volek — say this phenomenon with low thyroid while on a low-carbohydrate diet promoted by people in the Paleo community like Kresser and Paul Jaminet is “a myth”
                    Last edited by Whiskey Bar; 02-25-2014, 01:05 AM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Please continue your strawmen, ad hominem attacks and "lol you are so stupid you will fail believe me" "arguments". They show your understanding of nutrition quite well.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Okay it seems I have stirred a bees nest here on this forum by suggesting the notion of ketosis being safe. So I would just like to state that if all you want to do is argue about how ketosis is a bad and unhealthy thing, then I would rather have you not flame at me for being on the wrong side of your belief system.

                        I would like to add in that I seem to have found out a way to get rid of the cramps. This morning I added in double the protein intake I would usually have for breakfast to see if it would help any with my symptoms. Lo and behold cramps have dissipated within two hours and my urinary ketones are even higher then usual although I have had no more then my regular portion of fat. It would seem that the one size fits all mentality is even present in the avocation of ketogenic diets and that the standard advised 60-90g protein is too low for me and I need atleast 140-160g. Fingers crossed my eyes get less bloodshot and that would be problem solved for me

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          To troll: Plenty of people do keto for years without trouble. All these assertions about problems that "will" happen are just speculation. What do you about with people on keto who have no problems at all? You're just going to pretend they don't exist?

                          To OP, YES! eating more meat is great. Even a little gluconeogenesis will quickly subside and the ketones will keep on forming.
                          Crohn's, doing SCD

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by iceyed View Post
                            Okay it seems I have stirred a bees nest here on this forum by suggesting the notion of ketosis being safe. So I would just like to state that if all you want to do is argue about how ketosis is a bad and unhealthy thing, then I would rather have you not flame at me for being on the wrong side of your belief system.

                            I would like to add in that I seem to have found out a way to get rid of the cramps. This morning I added in double the protein intake I would usually have for breakfast to see if it would help any with my symptoms. Lo and behold cramps have dissipated within two hours and my urinary ketones are even higher then usual although I have had no more then my regular portion of fat. It would seem that the one size fits all mentality is even present in the avocation of ketogenic diets and that the standard advised 60-90g protein is too low for me and I need atleast 140-160g. Fingers crossed my eyes get less bloodshot and that would be problem solved for me
                            Yeah, I've always found that my protein needs are higher than what is normally recommended for deep ketosis. Even though I usually only do it for short stints. As to all that garbage about hypocaloric = ketosis therefore blah blah blah.....not true. You can get sufficient calories while eating ketotic. This is a big part of all the "eat more fat" recommendations that some people simply couldn' comprehend. I know a few people for realz (rather than interwebs) that do quite fine in a constant state of ketosis. I'm not a total buy in on it being the only metabolic healthy state for a human, but unless you already have metabolic issues at the mitochondrial level with utilizing fat for energy, it's not harmful. And yes there are those that do not have a great deal of metabolic flexibility. I suspect they are the ones that crash and burn on a VLC protocol:

                            What Is Metabolic Flexibility, and Why Is It Important? J. Stanton’s AHS 2013 Presentation, Including Slides - GNOLLS.ORG
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 02-25-2014, 06:08 AM.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              This was very informative, thank you for linking . I was doing daily walks of about 6 miles; mainly for the benefit of increased hippocampus volumes noted in depressed individuals and those with cognitive deficits in memory. Something I had the misfortune to experience after a few months of leading an over sedentary life with unhealthy food choices. However knowing that metabolic flexibility can be regained from mild aerobic excercise may aid me in becoming more keto-adapted at a greater pace, so I will be sure to go for a daily jog instead

                              And to bluetoad I will eventually add in some small amounts of starches at weekly intervals once past the one month mark, but I am also looking to first get a blood ketone meter before I do so as this will allow me to determine more effectively if my blood ketone levels are above 0.5 mmol/dl needed for the brain to use them.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X