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  • #16
    Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
    Oh haha I don't actually calculate my macros every day- I just logged it for maybe a couple days and those are what it averaged out to.
    So would it be better for me to increase my fats if I'm trying to gain weight but not very active, for minimal fat gain? I know on other threads there's also discussion on how fats are directly stored as fat, whereas carbs are more thermogenic. I know either way excess calories=weight gain, but what is the best to minimize fat gain? I also find my energy levels are low and I eat too much protein, so was wondering if I should use carbs, fats, or moderate amounts of both to replace some of my protein intake.
    Yikes...this is only getting worse. See this is why I suggest people read the book and just follow that for a month or two. You over complicating this in part because you relying on what I would call forum theory. Ditch forum theory. Eat PB by the book. Find an activity to enjoy. Report back in a month. A slight back issue is no reason to become completely sedentary! Actually it is quite the opposite.

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    • #17
      "Whether you eat enough calories through carbs or fat is largely irrelevant. The only difference is your body can use ingested fat for other purposes. Carbs, it's either store or burn. You're going to have a post prandial insulin spike either way if you're eating to a caloric surplus, so it's quite literally potato/poh tah toe. "

      If macros don't matter, why do people trying to gain strength tend to eat high carb on workout days, and higher fat on recovery days? I get that high carb fuels workouts, but why the higher fat when resting to minimize fat gains?

      on another note, I had the same question as Jason too, about combining fat & carbs in the same meal?

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      • #18
        I guess I'm about as moderate as it gets, in that I don't really pay any attention to what I eat. I mean, I don't really track it. Some days are really high fat, others high carb. Some days it's a protein day. It comes down to what's available and what sounds good... and I think it just sort of sorts itself out.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
          So in theory, is it actually preferable to eat a higher carb or higher fat diet? I'm trying to adjust my macros right now, and its funny you mention overeating and being sedentary because I am actually trying to gain weight but am not very active, so was wondering if i should be preferring carbs, fats, or moderate amounts of both to minimize fat gain.
          [ I know people will automatically recommend strength training and "Why aren't you active", but I've been having low energy lately and also have a minor lower back injury I don't want to exacerbate. ]

          Also, why is it suggested to not eat as many carbs if you are not active, if you have to eat >300g for it to be stored as fat?
          It's suggested to keep the carbs low because people around here think carbs make you fat. It used to be because of insulin. Maybe it still is, I don't know. To clear up the confusion about my 300 gram comment, my point was that your body doesn't turn glucose into fat until your glycogen stores are completely filled, which happens far beyond the common gram counts you'll see recommended here, so any theoretical narrative you see about too many carbs making you fat is a flat-out lie.

          As for high carb versus high fat to gain weight while sedentary, I'm personally biased toward HCLF. I don't know if my opinion would hold more weight in light of the fact that I actually did regain a significant amount of weight with that approach after I accidentally ended up at an impressively gaunt 150 pounds (at 6 feet) with a ketogenic diet. I gained fat as well, but I was overeating and not eating the best of foods, and the fat came off when I cleaned up my diet again. I don't think you can go wrong with lots of fruit, lots of starch, and lots of lean protein. Despite cries to the contrary, there is no such thing as a deficiency of saturated fat.
          Last edited by Timthetaco; 02-05-2014, 10:27 PM.

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          • #20
            Dunno, but, when I was trying to stick with certain numbers I felt worse and worse.
            After reading like a zillion contradicting articles I'm now more and more at eating what and how much I feel like. Just throw out all the bad stuff.
            Black magic specialist in bangladesh

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
              "Whether you eat enough calories through carbs or fat is largely irrelevant. The only difference is your body can use ingested fat for other purposes. Carbs, it's either store or burn. You're going to have a post prandial insulin spike either way if you're eating to a caloric surplus, so it's quite literally potato/poh tah toe. "

              If macros don't matter, why do people trying to gain strength tend to eat high carb on workout days, and higher fat on recovery days? I get that high carb fuels workouts, but why the higher fat when resting to minimize fat gains?

              on another note, I had the same question as Jason too, about combining fat & carbs in the same meal?
              Woof. You really need to read the book and start pumping through the search tool on Mark's blog.

              Someone who's done a resistance training or sprint workout has burnt out their muscle and liver glycogen stores, at least partially, in much more intense workouts almost completely. Taking advantage of this state of insulin sensitive state, post workout meals make an excellent time to ingest carbs.

              For someone who's sedentary, their stores of muscular and liver based glycogen are already full. Not being insulin sensitive, once they eat to a caloric surplus, the body's only real choice is storage in adipose tissue no matter what the source of excess calories is. The maintenance requirements for someone who's not really active are going to be super low so the reality is it's unlikely they'll be deficient in any macros.

              From a fat deposition point of view, this means how they get their excess calories is totally irrelevant. From a general health point of view, fat will probably be preferable due to their insulin resistance - upping the blood glucose levels in someone who is already insulin resistant is likely to cause more metabolic damage and eventually lead to type 2 diabetes.

              Unless you're severely underweight, recovering from an eating disorder, a serious dietary deficiency or have cystic fibrosis or something though, I can't see the logic in trying to gain without being able to put muscle back on. Maybe I'm just missing something here. But if you want more weight, MOAR lean mass is the healthiest avenue to pursue.

              As far as a minor back injury, sure, it will stop some things, but not everything. But the reality is that good strength training and increasing blood flow will speed up your recovery, not slow it down.

              In short, if you want to add more weight with a minimal fat gain, you just need to eat enough for a minimal caloric surplus. That's it. There's no other secret to it and while the macros breakdowns may have other health affects, they're irrelevant from a fat gain point of view to a sedentary individual. Activity is key to gaining lean mass.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
                but what is the best to minimize fat gain?
                Moderate aerobic activity, no snacking between meals, have 2 meals / day.

                I would like to add a quick word about metabolic flexibility as nicely described by J. Stanton on gnolls.org:

                - I eat carbs and fats about every day as part of my meals. But I can be without eating for 24h without being bothered by hunger. Why ? Because when I enter the fasting state, my energy substrate is mostly fat to get going with the normal daily activities (aerobic). I also happen to have good glycogen stores from my carby meals, and my liver must deliver to my brain what it needs when I am fasting.

                I can throw a sprint easily or lift heavy things if I need to for the same reason: my muscles are replenished in glycogen and therefore can do anaerobic activities (fat cannot be used for that). But as soon as I do aerobic activities, I use fat. The way I know this is:
                - totally weight stable regardless of my meal composition
                - no hunger pangs when fasting for about 18 hours
                That to me is a reflection of the metabolic flexibility. I was not always like that, believe me. I follow a Perfect Health Diet with some legumes / intermittent fasting / moderate workouts but with no well defined timing. sometimes, I eat big, sometimes I don't move much, sometimes, I fast 2 days, sometimes I do intense WO. No specific goals or strict protocol, I don't care. My weight has not changed in almost 2 years, my body comp has improved a lot and I am happy where I am.
                Last edited by FrenchFry; 02-06-2014, 05:28 AM.

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                • #23
                  Haha. Now I'm gonna go and complicate matters....well not really complicate. Just present another author to you who provides a pretty solid logical account for eating a certain macro ratio. That ratio (for carbs) may be just a hair higher than PB, but its well thought out none the less. The underlying idea is to eat what you will use with as little need for biochemical conversions by the body as possible. I can't find the actual arguments on the PHD website Perfect Health Diet - A diet for healing chronic disease, restoring youthful vitality, and achieving long life | Perfect Health Diet but here they are where Paul did an interview with Mercola:

                  The Paleo diet is based on what our ancestors ate during the Paleolithic period. There were no supermarkets back then, so they hunted and gathered their food. This also tells us there was regional variability in people's diets, as they could only eat that which grew and was available in their respective climate.

                  A second source of evidence is the composition of human breast milk, which we can assume must be, evolutionary speaking, a nutritionally ideal form of nourishment for human infants. And, while the nutritional needs of infants differ from adults, we can estimate how their nutrient needs differ, and adjust accordingly.

                  Third, we can look at diets of other mammals.

                  Fourth, the evolutionary evidence includes the inherent ability to survive a long fast or famine during times of scarcity. The human body was designed to be able to effectively hunt or gather food even if you hadn't eaten for awhile. This means the human body must be able to "cannibalize" itself.

                  Last but not least, the fifth source of evolutionary evidence is the food reward system of the human brain.

                  In terms of macronutrients, Dr. Jaminet recommends:

                  20-30 percent of daily calories: carbs, mainly from "safe starches" such as rice or potatoes, partly from fruits, berries, and vegetables
                  15 percent of daily calories: animal protein (or about 200-600 calories a day)
                  55-65 percent: healthy fats, especially low-omega-6 fats such as beef tallow, butter, fish oil, coconut oil, palm oil, and olive oil

                  Dr. Paul Jaminet Discusses the Benefits of a Healthy Diet
                  Last edited by Neckhammer; 02-06-2014, 07:42 AM.

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                  • #24
                    I eat high everything.

                    Sent via lightsaber

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                    • #25
                      "In short, if you want to add more weight with a minimal fat gain, you just need to eat enough for a minimal caloric surplus. That's it. There's no other secret to it and while the macros breakdowns may have other health affects, they're irrelevant from a fat gain point of view to a sedentary individual. Activity is key to gaining lean mass."

                      Reventon, that was really helpful. So my takeaway is hopefully correct: that I need to work my muscles if I want to gain any lean mass, and minimize fat gain. Otherwise, any excess calories regardless from which macro turns into fat.

                      However, I have read threads (which for some reason I can't find now) that people who do strength training eat high carb on workout days and high fat on recovery days to minimize fat gain OR do high carb once a week (carb cycling). Why high fat on recovery days, if in theory either way high carb or high fat excess calories = weight gain? Why not just eat high carb, or even just moderate amounts of both carbs and fat?

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
                        However, I have read threads (which for some reason I can't find now) that people who do strength training eat high carb on workout days and high fat on recovery days to minimize fat gain OR do high carb once a week (carb cycling). Why high fat on recovery days, if in theory either way high carb or high fat excess calories = weight gain? Why not just eat high carb, or even just moderate amounts of both carbs and fat?
                        Alfi56, you overthink things man!

                        Your hunger will adjust to your activity. Never mind the carbs vs fat minutia. Eat proper foods and most of all, work out fasted, recover and sleep well. Working out muscles is one thing, recovery is another. To gain lean mass, you can definitely do it a la leangains (work out fasted and eat a good meal only after that). But you also need to recover well via moderate aerobic activities (walking, swimming, house-cleaning, etc) and good sleep. Never mind the fat on rest days vs carbs on WO days. Just eat proper foods with their natural amount of fat and carbs. Move plenty at slow pace for burning fat, especially fasted, and do intense short interval training for muscle building (they build in the recovery phase by adapting to the "torture" you inflict them - so don't forget to eat your proteins in the post work-out phase!!)

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                        • #27
                          FrenchFry has a point, that just eating good food works. You don't need to particularly time macro consumption for good results and go into a psycho exercise and nutrition nerd mode.

                          Those interested in a little biohacking smash carbs post workout because the idea is by spiking post prandial insulin even further with a glucose rush, they will assist the body in shuttling protein to the muscles and making gains, and also to make sure the carbs they ingest get preferentially stored as glycogen rather than fat.

                          The first reason (insulin spike assisting protein synthesis) has largely been debunked as a theory, but the second remains very valid.

                          The reason they time it this way is simple - your body has no choice with excess carbs but to store them. By ingesting them at a time you're guaranteed to be low on glycogen, you're certain to store most of them as glycogen rather than fat.

                          By limiting carb consumption at times you are not especially insulin sensitive and relying on fat for energy, it opens the oxidation pathway used for fat burning for longer and biases the body to overall fat loss.

                          The reason this works is two fold - one, that intense glycogen burning activity actually occurs. This is the axis around which the whole macro paradigm revolves. Remove the activity and it's all moot.

                          Two, that overall caloric intake still isn't at a crazy surplus. You can be at a mild surplus and gain muscle without fat. Be at a big enough given surplus, and you will put fat on. This is largely something that occurs by happenstance and appetite while eating primally because the choice of food is intrinsically satiating.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Reventon View Post
                            and also to make sure the carbs they ingest get preferentially stored as glycogen rather than fat.
                            I think excess carbs (or glucose) that does not go into glycogen will most likely be "dissipated" via increasing body temp. The conversion of glucose to fat is quite unlikely unless you eat truck loads of it (good luck with that ). It also probably depends on the type (fructose vs glucose as excess fructose can definitely lead to fat in the liver).

                            But obviously, big _chronic_ caloric surplus will lead to fat gain for sure. Fat is the way we store excess energy for future starvation periods. Fat gain is a positive balance of stored energy (because you ALWAYS burn some fat to some extent, we could not live without this ability on a daily basis - even so-called broken metabolisms must burn some fat even though the switch from glucose burning to fat burning is somewhat defective).

                            Alfi56, one of the keys to burning fat is to spend enough time in the inter-prandial phase and move your butt (not necessarily too hard) during that phase. If you spend most of your time outdoors doing some relatively slow pace activity while not busy digesting, that's where it will happen. You can sleep long enough as well (slower but works).

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                              I think excess carbs (or glucose) that does not go into glycogen will most likely be "dissipated" via increasing body temp. The conversion of glucose to fat is quite unlikely unless you eat truck loads of it (good luck with that ). It also probably depends on the type (fructose vs glucose as excess fructose can definitely lead to fat in the liver).

                              But obviously, big _chronic_ caloric surplus will lead to fat gain for sure.
                              Sure. Some will go thermogenically or get burnt off via other means, but that set point varies for everyone to some extent. Even being way more fat adapted now than I ever have been, I gain fat a lot more quickly eating a relatively moderate amount of carbs than many folks eating paleo. That truckload is more like a cartload for me :/

                              There's always a level of tinkering and personalization you need to undergo, but I agree with the gist of what you're saying.

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
                                "In short, if you want to add more weight with a minimal fat gain, you just need to eat enough for a minimal caloric surplus. That's it. There's no other secret to it and while the macros breakdowns may have other health affects, they're irrelevant from a fat gain point of view to a sedentary individual. Activity is key to gaining lean mass."

                                Reventon, that was really helpful. So my takeaway is hopefully correct: that I need to work my muscles if I want to gain any lean mass, and minimize fat gain. Otherwise, any excess calories regardless from which macro turns into fat.

                                However, I have read threads (which for some reason I can't find now) that people who do strength training eat high carb on workout days and high fat on recovery days to minimize fat gain OR do high carb once a week (carb cycling). Why high fat on recovery days, if in theory either way high carb or high fat excess calories = weight gain? Why not just eat high carb, or even just moderate amounts of both carbs and fat?
                                Paralysis by analysis. Just read the book and do the program. Pick some form of resistance work to do....do that as well...the PB fitness book is fine and its free. Read up on this minutia WHILE you are doing the program. Then you will have info available to tweak with at a later date. By then you will probably realize its not needed.

                                Bah, and while carbohydrate may not easily turn to fat it does inhibit you burning fat for energy. It is a gradient rather than a hard switch, but what happens is you will effectively store more dietary fat and burn less fat off you're person while eating a higher carb load. Assuming the general higher caloric load that you are talking about. Raise in body temperature is indicative of a hypercaloric (eating more than you need) state.
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 02-07-2014, 06:46 AM.

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