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  • #16
    1



    Communism and Marxism? Really?


    Not to offend anyone, but I cannot see these claims as anything but unsubstantiated hyperbole unless accompanied by evidenciary support. What specifics of the proposal lead you to believe that we are under threat of an imminent communist rising?


    (I'm not being facetious; I am genuinely asking for more information. In my limited free time I have tried to research this issue. However, after finding myself hopelessly entrenched in slanted political ramblings without ever finding an objective point of view, I generally give up and take the dog for a walk.)


    While I cannot fully endorse the current proposals as I find myself insufficiently educated about them, I nonetheless find it disturbing that most opposition to them is based upon distorted, menacing rhetoric. I am earnestly puzzled at socialism being lauded as the next great threat to America; such apparently dire consequences are never quite fleshed out with detailed specifics as to how, when, or even why.


    Interestingly, I did find an article by the national director of Democratic Socialists of America in which he discusses the misappropriation of his ideology's name: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/07/22/opinion/main5180886.shtml


    (And, no, I am not a socialist, nor am I endorsing his organization. I just found it interesting to see a response to the "socialist" alarm from an actual admitted socialist.)


    I keep seeing Germany's health care system being mentioned. What differs in their system from the systems of Britain and Canada?

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    • #17
      1



      why do people think that the government will step in with government healthcare? its bullshit propaganda run by insurance companies. i lived in australia for 24 years before moving over to america, i have had 3 minor surgeries and a yearly doctors visit. i have never ever EVER run into any complications with the government telling the doctor what to do ever. infact i went into the ER one night because a moth flew in my ear. went in at 3am, waited til 4am to see a doctor who tried for around 20 minutes to get it out of my ear without having to put me under general. once they couldnt only another 1 hour wait for the anesthesiologist to come take my body mass and heart pressure etc and waiting for a surgery room. i was out and done by 9am. a whopping 6 hrs to pull a moth out of my ear, plus antibiotic course for a week. not bad for never having to pay a cent towards it. the waiting line for weeks thing is utter crap.

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      • #18
        1



        Thanks for posting this petition, a friend was just telling me about it yesterday and I meant to look for it. I have already emailed my congresspeople to let them know that I believe in freedom and liberty and no federal government interference beyond its Constitutionally defined duties. I urge everyone else who feels strongly to email your representatives as well. They need to know how we feel to properly represent us.

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        • #19
          1



          "A necessitous man is not a free man." True when FDR said it, true now.


          You guys crack me up - with anger at the knee jerk reactions - with your pious comments about "freedom" and "socialism" and "Constitutionally defined duties." Well, you mean the Constitution that has been changed 27 times allowing things like women and minorities to vote? To buy any house they wish to? To require warrants for searches? To define a free press and that there will be not state religion? Well, there is no provision for a standing Army and nothing about flying airplanes, is there? But we have them.


          Anyone here have parents refusing Social Security or Medicare? Do you intend to? Do you really, really think your HMO give you medical "freedom?" I already explained how they DON'T and Medicare does. But your ideology just can't face the reality.


          Do you know what the most socialized institution in America is? One that will feed you and house you AND GIVE YOU FREE MEDICAL CARE? It's the military. So much for not having "socialism" in our midst.


          You folks who want your freedom to pay 30% more for crappier care, well, you go right ahead. Obama has said that if you like what you have, you keep it.


          Ecala, don't tell ME there is a health care crisis when my only alternatives are aspirin or the ER....which I know from experience then they hound you if you don't pay in 30 days and then turn it over to collection agency. You are a fool, plain and simple. A blind fool who cannot see that some of us are suffering greatly under this "system." If you have a family, your health care is costing about $10000 a year or more, things depending. Is that a good use of your wages? And they ARE your wages when your employer pays for your HC.


          Don't Americans deserve care that many third world nations can assure their citizens? Do you really think it's OK for 22,000 Americans to die every year because they wait too long to take care of a problem, or can't afford the drugs they need? Are these matters OK to you?


          Here's another historical quote: "Let them eat cake." You probably like that one except for being made from grains.

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          • #20
            1



            OTB.. you crack ME up. It's very difficult to take you seriously.

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            • #21
              1



              And FTR, I said there is NOT a healthcare crisis-- even though, I have to admit, it's not perfect.


              We have the best doctors in the world and no one is denied healthcare.

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              • #22
                1



                OTB- I have no insurance. I pay out of pocket on my $18,000 a year income.


                Tell me... what do you think would happen if Burger King gave away free hamburgers? Everybody would want a hamburger, whether they need it or not. Same goes for healthcare. You'll have every ninny and her nine kids down there for runny noses and slivers.


                I'd also like to know how you love the DMV, the post office, or the VA. Yup, the government sure does a great job of running things.


                Do tell me how I'm supposed to feel when my 70-year-old mother, who is full of life, develops cancer and the government recomends "end of life councelling" instead of treating her because it's "not worth the expense."


                Tell me how I'm supposed to feel if I develop cancer and am told to wait 6 months (behind the sniffling noses and splinters) to get the scans I need to diagnose. Tell me how I'm supposed to feel if I end up having to wait 8 months for a root canal.


                Tell me, OTB, what the incentive is for people to eat healthfully, drive safely and take care of themselves if the hospital will just fix it for free?


                And then you get into the arena of the government telling you what you can and can't do (or eat) because it'll cost the government more money to pay your doctor bills. You know those saturated fats CW hates so much? They could be banned just like trans fats. No more good fat for you because the Nanny State says so. So should the government dictate how I should live my life based on what the stats say they'll have to pay for my bills?


                "From each according to his ability to each according to his need." That's what Obama is proposing. Tax the so-called "rich" to pay for poor folks' healthcare. Look up the phrase. It's Marxism.


                Socialized medicine is a FAILURE everywhere it's tried. The Brits are learning that now because they're BROKE. Hawaii tried giving free healthcare to uninsured children. It lasted 7 months before they went broke.

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                • #23
                  1



                  We are ALL going to disagree on this and no one is going to 'convince' anyone of the 'issue' (sigh).


                  I just don't think Big Brother should have any more control. PERIOD. I don't see why I would be viewed as an 'idiot' for thinking so! :-/


                  That's why our Country was founded in the first place. The Queen told us what religion to be, etc, etc. The Constitution was to be set forth to hold 'Big Government' accountable by the little people.


                  WHY, WHY, WHY do you want socialized reform? Go to another Country then? I really don't see any other way.


                  Anyway, I'm done arguing, because no one will 'transform' their opinion.


                  After wrestling with the pig in the mud, after a while, you realize the pig likes it....

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                  • #24
                    1



                    I agree, SassaFrass88! And Diana, Kfine, FlyNavyWife, Ecala!


                    It heartens me to see so many like-minded folks here! Yes!! Maybe there is a hope for freedom still!

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                    • #25
                      1

                      [quote]

                      "From each according to his ability to each according to his need." That's what Obama is proposing. Tax the so-called "rich" to pay for poor folks' healthcare. Look up the phrase. It's Marxism.
                      </blockquote>


                      PUKE! That makes me want to just RETCH in disgust and dismay.
                      [quote]

                      Anyway, I&#39;m done arguing, because no one will &#39;transform&#39; their opinion.


                      After wrestling with the pig in the mud, after a while, you realize the pig likes it.... </blockquote>


                      Sadly, you&#39;re right.

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                      • #26
                        1



                        This is the Atlas Society (Objectivists) take on the issue.


                        http://www.atlassociety.org/showcontent.aspx?ct=14&h=53


                        Check it out it&#39;s a good read.

                        “Every saint has a past and every sinner has a future.” -Oscar Wilde
                        "The power of accurate observation is commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." -George Bernard Shaw
                        "The trouble with jogging is that the ice falls out of your glass." -Martin Mull

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                        • #27
                          1



                          Here is a CRAZY idea...how about we take all of the money that Obama wants to spend on healthcare reform and create jobs within companies that pay for healthcare for their employees? I know I know, it&#39;s way too simplistic to work.

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                          • #28
                            1



                            Don&#39;t believe I said anyone would be &#39;denied&#39; medical care... just that it is unaffordable and will put them into debt for the rest of the lives. Many people opt not to go that route, especially as insurers refuse them.

                            Start weight: 250 - 06/2009
                            Current weight: 199
                            Goal: 145

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                            • #29
                              1

                              [quote]

                              "From each according to his ability to each according to his need." That&#39;s what Obama is proposing. Tax the so-called "rich" to pay for poor folks&#39; healthcare. Look up the phrase. It&#39;s Marxism. </blockquote>


                              Well, I did look up Marxism, but I didn&#39;t exactly find that. Most articles/definitions seemed geared towards the clash of the non-owning, working class and the owning, non-working class; specifically, I seemed to find that Marxism references the supposed domination of the former by the latter through capitalism. The root of Marxist theory appears to be that this struggle inevitably leads to a proletariat uprising, and as such is a driving force of historical change in societies. I did not find "Robin Hood" ethics overtly mentioned; however, I concede that this could be due to a very brief search.


                              While I respect your impassioned argument, I do not believe that you showed what is wrong with the health care proposal. You have presented several undeniably terrible and unjust situations, a veritable doomsday collage of future medical tragedies to be had under socialized medicine. However, I want to know exactly what parts of the current proposals lead you to believe that such situations are unavoidable. What specific provisions in the plan will cause these dire circumstances to materialize and how? Is something terribly worded in the proposal, or are there flagrant errors in logic? Unless you can provide specific examples of what parts of the proposal will lead to your tragic examples, your argument is nothing but empty, albeit passionate, rhetoric. You have appealed to my emotions, but I am not convinced until you appeal to my logic.


                              I do not mean to sound unduly critical of your post--I really do want to learn more about this situation, and I am hoping that you have some specifics to support your claim as you seem to be more well-read on the subject than I am. I&#39;m really not trying to sound snide; it&#39;s so hard to convey amiability or neutrality in internet discourse without resorting to excessive emoticons. Since I&#39;m not fifteen, I think I should refrain from that.


                              I am still hoping someone can explain Germany&#39;s medical system and how it differs from Canada and Britain, and how this current proposal compares to Germany&#39;s reportedly successful system.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                1



                                I signed it and passed it on. I don&#39;t want more government intrusion in my life or some government bureaucrat making decisions on my health care.


                                I do agree that the system needs improvement. So fix it. Don&#39;t throw the baby out with the bath water and start from scratch with a big government bureaucracy. When was the last time government ran a successful on budget entitlement program?


                                Also what is the rush. The damn thing doesn&#39;t go into affect until 2013. So slow down, get it right and keep government run health care out of it.

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