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Why do doctors tell us to eat stuff that's clearly bad for us?

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  • #61
    I see it as an oversimplification that metabolic disease driven healthcare costs gave us the ACA, but I don't think that's necessarily what you are saying as much as it is a major contributor....

    That said, I don't really blame the USDA guidelines of grain vs meat, and all of the CW, as the major reason behind our obesity problems. Last I checked, none of my patients ever came to me and said "Well, I followed the food pyramid to a T, and still got to be 400lbs and wildly diabetic."

    I do feel that grains, especially dwarf wheat, are major contributors to our problems.....but it must be understood that it is not that too many Americans are eating shredded wheat or stone flour bread. The problem is all of the hyper-palatable concoctions that can be made with said commodity crops. As Kimchi wrote, it is the ability to take ALL of this garbage and do the ultimately economically viable thing you can to it: boost its value.

    A carrot is still just a carrot, no matter what you do with it. Same for vegetables or fruit, outside of juicing some them there is not really any way to boost their value.....but ah, what dreams may come from the commodity crops of wheat and corn, where I can take TONS of it and dice it, boil it, add a chemistry set to it, and now it is SODA. It is a bag of Cheetos, a hamburger bun, etc. I have done the equivalent of taking iron ore and turning it into an airplane wing, making a ton of money in the process.

    This is why paleo will never be a mainstream idea. Don't look for it, don't even hope for it. There is simply not enough money to be made from telling people to eat 4 main things that cannot have value added to them: wild seafood, grass-fed humane meat, fruit and veg.....look at any of those as a businessman, and you will see that there are extremely strong "rate-limiting steps" to profit off of them. Seafood is subject to seasons and catch limits, humane meat to actual nature, same with fruit and veg.

    I have to talk about paleo to complete neophytes pretty often, so I am quick to make that distinction.....do I think that people are eating far too much spelt or barley bread, and THAT is why we have this problem? No. I don't think its particularly healthful, but its not the problem. The real monster is hyper-palatable industrial food made with commodity crops, consumed in huge quantities without any prolonged glucagonic response to ever be allowed to be established.

    But yes, Kimchi's progression there was pretty scary
    "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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    • #62
      Doctors aren't smart. Heck, we still surgically rape 50% of the male babies in this country. We're a backwards country.

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      • #63
        That's it, Kimchi!
        Last edited by Karyn S; 12-27-2013, 06:13 PM.

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        • #64
          People really do eat all over the board, but what strikes me about how we eat is the feast or famine. People are either gluttons, just shoveling in crap OR they eat nothing. We seem to lack that middle ground these days. It's either a chicken salad with 3 ounces of chicken breast OR the triple burger with French fries.

          Then weird things seem to be demonized because of fat. There was an article about eggnog and how bad it is for you with the eggs and whole milk. No mention of the sugar.....but it has 300 calories. Then the "nutritionist" suggested soy nog, which despite being fat free has some odd 200 calories in it (sugar). Then she mentioned how she can't enjoy it due to soy sensitivity.

          If you don't just full on eat crap, you've cut out fat and eat weird, sugar filled foods to make up the difference.

          It's sad because the tastiest, healthiest diet is just eating a range of real, whole foods.

          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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          • #65
            caveat: don't judge me. last night saw a clip from "toddlers and tiaras". the mother gives her 2-year-old daughter a concoction they call "pixie tea." it's mountain dew, sweet tea and pixie stix dust in a giant cup. you should have seen the kid crying and jonesing while her momager made it. "it's better than juice, which is 98% sugar anyway."

            end of times.
            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

            ľ Ernest Hemingway

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            • #66
              last night saw a clip from "toddlers and tiaras". the mother gives her 2-year-old daughter a concoction they call "pixie tea." it's mountain dew, sweet tea and pixie stix dust in a giant cup. you should have seen the kid crying and jonesing while her momager made it. "it's better than juice, which is 98% sugar anyway."
              And mom will be pissed when kid gets fat and will put her on some crazy ass diet.

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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              • #67
                What blows my mind is my family, specifically my sister's girl children. One is 22 years old. This is the first time I have ever seen her eat anything other than white bread and spaghetti-ohs. Her little sister is 12 and she is the same. She will only eat plain noodles or bread. Both of them look like ballerinas. How can you even grow a human being from a diet like this, let alone two beautiful ones? Somehow it happened though. At least the 22-year-old provides hope because she's finally grown out of it.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • #68
                  I can't agree with Kimchi that this was a conspiracy theory planned in advance, at least not in the beginning. More likely, the industry was just responding to each good result with another layer of processing, always in the direction of more Value Added, as Lazarus says. High f¨cktose corn syrup was invented to make cranberry juice cheaper during a sugar embargo. Once invented, it was used to sweeten everything else into a processed food. Ditto for dwarf hybrid wheat. They didn't cross-breed the wheat to sell diabetes drugs; they wanted a strain that would grow faster -- you can even grow it on cheap land in cold Canada --, use less fertilizer, and not gum up the harvester. They certainly weren't going to give up the soybean oil and waste a soy subsidy.

                  I don't believe that the industry "launched" the idea that meat or saturated fat was bad. I believe that the idea was launched by vegetarians, Ancel Keys, and others. However, the industry USED that idea, heavily, to promote their own products, and they continue using that idea to sell their sweet, addictive, palatable products. It's too hard and too expensive for them to switch back. It's much easier to send an army of lawyers to attack William Davis. And on the consumer side, it's easier to accept that a Size 14 is a "real woman," or to buy Thank-Goodness-It-Fits pantyhose, or to try to sell pills and exercise equipment. I mean really, which farmer's market is going to buy commercial time on Dr. Oz?

                  Didn't we see something similar with smoking? Long after they knew cigarettes caused lung cancer, the tobacco companies covered and resisted the truth. Yet, there are still smokers today...

                  I don't think our society will ever be Paleo. At best, we may see some real government studies where dwarf hybrid wheat is PROVEN to cause acid reflux or diabetes in most (not all*) of the population, to where we can get a Black Box on a loaf of bread same as it is on a pack of cigs. Even then, people will still buy the stuff because they don't know einkorn wheat from modern wheat. After all, we've been eating "wheat" for 10,000 years... have you ever tried to explain to someone that, no, we haven't been eating this "wheat" for 10,000 years? I've tried, and had a high rate of failure. It just takes too many sentences, and people run away long before then.

                  On a side note, Lazarus, grocers HAVE found a way to Add Value to a carrot. The frozen veggie aisle used to be just that, frozen carrots, or at most, a pea/carrot mix. Now, half the aisle is filled pre-processed veggie "side dishes" like soybean oil "sauces" or "steamer bags" that you can pop right into the nuker, or come in kits with sauce packets and you add your own processed meat. And oh, those value added bags sell 10 ounces of carrots for the same price as a 16 ounce bag of plain-jane carrots. Evidently it's too much effort to open a bag and slice a pat of butter yourself!


                  ----------
                  *you're always going to have that anecdote where someone eats wheat and never gets fat, or the 27-year-olds who eat all sort of junk and stay thin. Yeah, so what. We've always had the knowledge that smokers usually don't get lung cancer until they are 60, or the story of Uncle Joe who smoked two packs a day and lived to be 90. We have to go with the majority of the population.
                  5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by oxide View Post
                    I can't agree with Kimchi that this was a conspiracy theory planned in advance, at least not in the beginning. More likely, the industry was just responding to each good result with another layer of processing, always in the direction of more Value Added, as Lazarus says. High f¨cktose corn syrup was invented to make cranberry juice cheaper during a sugar embargo. Once invented, it was used to sweeten everything else into a processed food. Ditto for dwarf hybrid wheat. They didn't cross-breed the wheat to sell diabetes drugs; they wanted a strain that would grow faster -- you can even grow it on cheap land in cold Canada --, use less fertilizer, and not gum up the harvester.
                    Actually, the primary goal of wheat hybridization since the beginning of the agricultural revolution has always been to improve its breadmaking characteristics. That means more gluten.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                      I went to my dermatologist (I see him every 6 months for a check up). My wife took my daughter to him for acne. He put her on accutane and "the pill". I see as him and my wife doing an experiment on my daughter. My daughter is now 22 and has to take a thyroid med every day for hypothyroidism, and an antibiotic because she still has acne. I wonder if the accutane was related. Her OB sent her to a different dermatologist (in the same clinic). I'm told this doctor follows paleo. After her first visit, as she was leaving, this doctor told her, "I'm one of a very few doctors who will tell you this, but if you go on a low carb diet, cut the carbs, you'll probably get rid of you pollycysts.

                      I tried to bring up nutrition to my (her former) dermatologist in regards to acne and he immediately put nutrition down as having anything to do with acne and brought up this: Twinkie diet helps nutrition professor lose 27 pounds - CNN.com. That's when I fired back at him what you read in my sig (below). The nurse chuckled. "There's no report of Eskimos having acne until one generation after adopting a Western diet. Can you explain that?"
                      I ran into the low carb acne treatment by accident (because you sure won't hear about it in a Dr's office). DD had pretty bad acne that wasn't responding to any topical treatment. Doxycycline controlled it fairly well, at least kept the scarring type of outbreaks to a minimum, but I was just sick at the thought of choosing between years of oral antibiotics or permanent scars.

                      Then she decided to try some Victoria's Secret model's low carb diet. Except she ended up replacing all of her grainy snacks with fruit and just cutting bread and cereal from her breakfast and lunch, so she's lower carb than a junk food junky, but rarely under 100g. What she actually ended up doing is reducing her gluten consumption by 75% or so. Her acne is gone! She's experimented with eating more and then less gluten and her flare ups correlate almost perfectly with indiscriminate gluten consumption.

                      How many millions of kids are taking antibiotics or poisons like Accutane because nobody wants to say, "Step away from the Cheezits?"
                      50yo, 5'3"
                      SW-195
                      CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
                      GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

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                      • #71
                        I think a lot of doctors don't tell their patients to change their lifestyle (food/exercise/sleep) because they know from experience that most won't do it. In fact most patients can barely take the medications they are prescribed correctly. It's probably so rare for a doctor to encounter a patient that is actually willing to take responsibility for their health that when they see such a patient they don't believe it.
                        Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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                        • #72
                          The history of the dietary guidelines is interesting. Taubes does a decent editorial on laying out how those guides came about

                          Science -- Taubes 291 (5513): 2536
                          Science by committee
                          "Like the flourishing American affinity for alternative medicine, an antifat movement evolved independently of science in the 1960s. It was fed by distrust of the establishment--in this case, both the medical establishment and the food industry--and by counterculture attacks on excessive consumption, whether manifested in gas-guzzling cars or the classic American cuisine of bacon and eggs and marbled steaks. And while the data on fat and health remained ambiguous and the scientific community polarized, the deadlock was broken not by any new science, but by politicians. It was Senator George McGovern's bipartisan, nonlegislative Select Committee on Nutrition and Human Needs--and, to be precise, a handful of McGovern's staff members--that almost single-handedly changed nutritional policy in this country and initiated the process of turning the dietary fat hypothesis into dogma.

                          McGovern's committee was founded in 1968 with a mandate to eradicate malnutrition in America, and it instituted a series of landmark federal food assistance programs. As the malnutrition work began to peter out in the mid-1970s, however, the committee didn't disband. Rather, its general counsel, Marshall Matz, and staff director, Alan Stone, both young lawyers, decided that the committee would address "overnutrition," the dietary excesses of Americans. It was a "casual endeavor," says Matz. "We really were totally na´ve, a bunch of kids, who just thought, 'Hell, we should say something on this subject before we go out of business.' " McGovern and his fellow senators--all middle-aged men worried about their girth and their health--signed on; McGovern and his wife had both gone through diet-guru Nathan Pritikin's very low fat diet... [there's more to his arguments]"

                          If you look at palatable foods what are they made of? Wheat, starches with added sugar/fructose (HFCS), and fats. I also find it interesting that the very foods I hated as a kid are mostly the ones excluded from a paleo diet. In order to make those foods palatable, for me, I had to doctor (no pun intended) them up. We hated white rice, so...we added cinnamon and a lot of sugar. Pancakes sucked so we added butter, Karo corn syrup, and soaked in with hot water. Bread needed butter and/or jelly, or peanut butter. Oatmeal was god offal. Cream of Wheat had to be the chocolate version.....with lots of mike an sugar. IOW the bases of the food guide tastes like crap unless you add a lot of sweets and or fats to eat the stuff.

                          I was somewhat different then the other kids in that I couldn't eat highly sugared up treats. Too much made me sick and lethargic. To this day the thought of cotton candy, candied yams, taffy, Halloween candied corn, and pecan pie turns me off. But it doesn't affect me as bad as it once did. I'm guessing my body didn't produce much fructokinase (fructokinase (enzyme) -- Encyclopedia Britannica) when I was younger. I've read that your body can adapt to making more if you're eating more fructose.

                          As I became an adult I pushed myself to eat those foods I hated as a kid but were supposed to be good for me. Today the food industry doctors up the food for us by making it highly palatable. Take away the additives and the bases of the pyramid is pretty damn bland.
                          Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
                            I think a lot of doctors don't tell their patients to change their lifestyle (food/exercise/sleep) because they know from experience that most won't do it. In fact most patients can barely take the medications they are prescribed correctly. It's probably so rare for a doctor to encounter a patient that is actually willing to take responsibility for their health that when they see such a patient they don't believe it.
                            I don't think it's rare that patients are willing due to the fact that more people today are busting their asses exercising. I run into this all the time, people are confused about what they should and shouldn't eat. I live in a rural area and hear anecdotal stories like how grandpa would smear lard on his toast and never had heart disease or got fat. I know people (esp women) who regularly get up at 5AM and go for a walk/jog or to the gym. Then they go back home, shower, and go to work. To look at them you'd never think they exercised at all. They have the dedication. What they don't have is nutritional knowledge. I know this guy who might be in he 70s now. He ran a lot training for half marathons thinking he was doing himself a lot good (he now has some, I think, Phidippides Cardiomyopathy and was told he'd likely need a pacemaker). This guy was dedicated. Today he walks for exercise. He once commented to me: "You know, Scott, you'd think as much running that I do I wouldn't be this fat." I told him its easy to eat those calories back on and that it still comes down to how much you shove through you pie hole. But he thought he was eating a healthy diet based upon CW guidelines.

                            If paleo/primal was to become more mainstream it'll have to come from grassroots up because there's too many special interest fighting this way of eating from the top down.
                            Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                            • #74
                              Originally posted by LauraSB View Post
                              I ran into the low carb acne treatment by accident (because you sure won't hear about it in a Dr's office). DD had pretty bad acne that wasn't responding to any topical treatment. Doxycycline controlled it fairly well, at least kept the scarring type of outbreaks to a minimum, but I was just sick at the thought of choosing between years of oral antibiotics or permanent scars.

                              Then she decided to try some Victoria's Secret model's low carb diet. Except she ended up replacing all of her grainy snacks with fruit and just cutting bread and cereal from her breakfast and lunch, so she's lower carb than a junk food junky, but rarely under 100g. What she actually ended up doing is reducing her gluten consumption by 75% or so. Her acne is gone! She's experimented with eating more and then less gluten and her flare ups correlate almost perfectly with indiscriminate gluten consumption.

                              How many millions of kids are taking antibiotics or poisons like Accutane because nobody wants to say, "Step away from the Cheezits?"
                              Let me add to this (esp for any optometrists). My dad had a chronic sinus drainage issue and his GP prescribed meds. Since I was in my 20 (at least) I had this chronic need to clear my throat plus I would get this mucous gunk in my eyes that I'd pull out (think Johnny Carson digging into the corner of his eyes). My daughter has the same eye thing. My son has to clear his throat a lot, too.

                              My older brother went to his chiropractor for his back and offhandedly mentioned his sinus issue and that he couldn't get a good nights sleep. The chiropractor told him to try giving up wheat for a few weeks. My brother claims that within a week he was sleeping all night and his sinuses cleared. Except for some experimenting he hasn't eating wheat since. Also, one day he was cleaning out his pickup and found some Rolaids and realized, then, that he hasn't been taking them anymore for his indigestion.

                              When I went paleo my chronic need to clear my throat largely went away and so did this gunk in my eyes. If I eat a lot of wheat it comes right back. I tell my son and daughter to try giving up wheat to see if their issues get better.
                              Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

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                              • #75
                                I agree that lots of people really truly ARE willing to make drastic changes for their health. I know lots and LOTS of them.

                                One thing I notice is that whenever some middle-aged man gets some kind of warning about heart disease he decides to start hiking or bike riding and goes on a low-meat diet. The bike rider guys all get really fat, but it's slow to happen, takes a few years. Whenever I see them again they are fatter. Big pot bellies, large legs that lack any muscle definition. But they believe they're doing the right thing because they're exercising hard.

                                The hiker guys I know usually don't get fatter like the biker guys. A few of them take statins and beta blockers. One on beta blockers would slow the group down because beta blockers prevent your heart from beating fast. Who would take up exercise while on a medicine that doesn't allow your heart to beat fast? What kind of sadist doctor would recommend exercise and beta blockers together?

                                One guy I know had to quit hiking and leading Sierra Club hikes because he fell apart with muscle pain and weakness from statins. He's been recuperating for a few months and hopes to get back in it. He had been especially proud of himself because he used a spreadsheet to keep close tabs on his diet and managed to lose a lot of weight. He was ridiculously thin if you ask me. He could have done a lot better for his health had he taken up weight lifting instead. He's just trying to be thin, eat very little meat, take his medicine and get his cholesterol down like the doctor suggests. It has both succeeded and failed miserably for this poor guy who is currently incapacitated from the statins.

                                Bunches of them that I know all bleed like sieves whenever they get scratched doing trail work because they're all on low-dose aspirin. They get together around the campfire and talk about their deck of card size pieces of meat, their brain fog, their aches and pains. They're just as "at-risk" as they ever were before even though they are out there backpacking, doing heavy trail work, eating light, taking their meds, avoiding meat and fat, watching their cholesterol. Their cholesterol might be lower, but they still have health problems, many caused by their efforts to lower the cholesterol!

                                God these poor guys, they really do try, they really aren't eating donuts and pizza and playing video games, and yet their health gets drastically WORSE when they do the right thing.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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