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  • #31
    Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
    pasteurization is one of the most successful public health initiatives of modern times.
    Actually, I just heard yesterday that pasturisation only gained widespread acceptance during WW1 when conscription caused inexperienced people to be put in most of the milking jobs. Before that people knew how to handle 'raw' milk hygenically and there wasn't a health problem.

    p.s. We have a source of raw milk.
    Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

    Griff's cholesterol primer
    5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
    Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
    TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
    bloodorchid is always right

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Bear View Post
      Oh...and my sinus issues...not all dairy...just this stuff...organic/UHT. I had hoped I made clear the protocol I used to narrow down the list of suspects. Did you read that? Just curious...
      I read back through the entire thread. I saw where you eliminated UHT organic milk. You don't mention what you replaced it with. Conventional? Raw? You can't draw any (rational) conclusions about UHT unless you're still drinking some other sort of milk without experiencing symptoms.

      And I'm no apologist for UHT either. I wouldn't touch the stuff myself.
      50yo, 5'3"
      SW-195
      CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
      GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

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      • #33
        Originally posted by LauraSB View Post
        I read back through the entire thread. I saw where you eliminated UHT organic milk. You don't mention what you replaced it with. Conventional? Raw? You can't draw any (rational) conclusions about UHT unless you're still drinking some other sort of milk without experiencing symptoms.

        And I'm no apologist for UHT either. I wouldn't touch the stuff myself.
        Excellent point...but before starting in with the organic UHT pasteurized milk, I drank regular, non-organic, normally pasteurized milk with no problems. So...did the UHT processed milk cause the problem? Be my guess...

        However...it has been a week since I stopped with the UHT stuff. I plan to drink regular milk (what I used to drink) tomorrow, as a test. If the symptoms return, I'll be humble enough to admit it...but the coincidence of my symptoms with the change from regular non-organic, to UHT processed organic milk argues against that outcome.

        This is a little off the original topic, but I'd like to add something interesting to this conversation. When my symptoms first appeared, I went to my dermatologist, who said the red spots on my nose were probably the result of staph bacteria in my nose (he went on to add that something like 30% or so of all people are staph "carriers"). Did he culture my nose? Nope. Some time later, when the symptoms continued, I went to my family doctor's PA and asked her what it could be? Did she culture my nose? Nope. She thought it "might" be rosacea. So, in the first case, I underwent an antibiotic therapy (both oral and topical, the latter being Mupirocin administered to the nose). No luck. In the latter case, the PA said antibiotics can be used to "treat" rosacea...even though there's no cure. Some months later, I went back to the PA and said, "I am going to beg you to do something...take a culture of my nose". Reluctantly, she did it. Result? Not a sign of bacterial infection by staph germs. My point in dragging all this information into the conversation is to illustrate how a problem that was ostensibly food-originated came to be viewed by medical professionals as otherwise, and that the knee-jerk response was to treat me with antibiotics. Trading one problem (food causing an apparent immune response) for another (prescribing antibiotics when there was no need, and WITHOUT a test for the suspect bacteria first). That one's on me...I should have done my research then, not a year later out of sheer frustration.

        There's something troubling about the process I went through, but again...it's on me for not being more insistent, or doing my own research.
        Last edited by Bear; 12-15-2013, 05:18 PM.

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        • #34
          Bear, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. I'm a scientist so I'm accustomed to eliminating variables one at a time. Your symptoms were caused by "organic UHT milk." So I didn't know if the culprit was the organic, the UHT, or the milk itself. That's why I didn't like the thread title. The title says that organic is the culprit, but it may be that it's the UHT.

          If you really wanted to run scientific controls, you would have to test with:
          1. Conventional regular pasteurized <-- which you drank before. So milk itself is not a problem.
          2. Organic UHT <-- which gave you symptoms
          3. Organic flash-pasteurized <-- can you find a brand of organic milk that is not UHT? If you can handle it, then organic is OK, but UHT is the culprit.
          4. Convensional UHT <-- this would NAIL that UHT is the culprit.

          Keep us posted!

          Cantare, I haven't run across any UHT regular milk, but I guess it's out there. Luckily, it appears that it's always labeled as UHT so it's easy to avoid. Even if it's not labeled, you can tell it's UHT because the sell-by date is at least six weeks later than you would expect from milk.
          5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by oxide View Post
            Bear, I'm sorry if I sounded harsh. I'm a scientist so I'm accustomed to eliminating variables one at a time. Your symptoms were caused by "organic UHT milk." So I didn't know if the culprit was the organic, the UHT, or the milk itself. That's why I didn't like the thread title. The title says that organic is the culprit, but it may be that it's the UHT.

            If you really wanted to run scientific controls, you would have to test with:
            1. Conventional regular pasteurized <-- which you drank before. So milk itself is not a problem.
            2. Organic UHT <-- which gave you symptoms
            3. Organic flash-pasteurized <-- can you find a brand of organic milk that is not UHT? If you can handle it, then organic is OK, but UHT is the culprit.
            4. Convensional UHT <-- this would NAIL that UHT is the culprit.

            Keep us posted!

            Cantare, I haven't run across any UHT regular milk, but I guess it's out there. Luckily, it appears that it's always labeled as UHT so it's easy to avoid. Even if it's not labeled, you can tell it's UHT because the sell-by date is at least six weeks later than you would expect from milk.
            Appreciate the sentiment. We are looking this week for organic non-UHT milk at Whole Foods (our source for the organic UHT). I believe the dairy that made our UHT also makes a non-UHT, but it may not be available here.

            But trust me...I have examined every variable in my life that could have changed in the past year, and this culprit seems most suspect. While not a scientist, my degree is in mathematics and I have a reasonably well-developed critical thinking mentality. I will keep you posted...and thanks for this most recent post - it was gracious of you.

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            • #36
              I haven't poured myself a glass of milk in 30 years. I will have a small amount of half/half in my coffee sometimes, usually the Ultra Pasteurized Organic variety because the non ultra would go bad before I got close to finishing it.

              OP said "However...it has been a week since I stopped with the UHT stuff." I'd have to say that one week isn't really a basis for a long dissertation on the subject of the evils of Organic milk. I think plain old milk for adults is pretty evil in most forms. Now ferment it into kefir, yogurt or cheese and you've got me enjoying it, within limits.

              If the non UHT does it for you I'm glad to hear you solved the problem.

              btw - I suffered with sinus troubles for 20 years and tried every method of fixing the problem without any success until I hit on no grains/sugars/booze. Sinus troubles have hit the road jack!

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              • #37
                Originally posted by eats.meats.west View Post
                I will have a small amount of half/half in my coffee sometimes, usually the Ultra Pasteurized Organic variety because the non ultra would go bad before I got close to finishing it.[/B]
                Freeze it! Pour it into ice cube trays and pop out 1-2 cubes when you have coffee. Then you can drink grass-fed dairy and you don't have to rely on UHT. Note: the half&half tends to stick to ice cube trays. I either pry the cubes out, or I use those floppy silicone trays, or I just freeze the half&half in 1-cup portions and defrost one at a time.
                5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by eats.meats.west View Post
                  I haven't poured myself a glass of milk in 30 years. I will have a small amount of half/half in my coffee sometimes, usually the Ultra Pasteurized Organic variety because the non ultra would go bad before I got close to finishing it.

                  OP said "However...it has been a week since I stopped with the UHT stuff." I'd have to say that one week isn't really a basis for a long dissertation on the subject of the evils of Organic milk. I think plain old milk for adults is pretty evil in most forms. Now ferment it into kefir, yogurt or cheese and you've got me enjoying it, within limits.

                  If the non UHT does it for you I'm glad to hear you solved the problem.

                  btw - I suffered with sinus troubles for 20 years and tried every method of fixing the problem without any success until I hit on no grains/sugars/booze. Sinus troubles have hit the road jack!
                  A week DOES seem short for such a conclusion, but the thing is...I had this problem for about a year, and had NO success in getting any relief whatsoever. Then I stopped the UHT organic milk, and within 24 hours the improvement was incredible. But, you're right...and maybe it was a coincidence...we'll see. But the correlation between stopping the UHT milk and the symptom abatement is pretty compelling, if only to me.

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                  • #39
                    it's not unusual for medical professionals to be oblivious to the possibility that food causes anything other than gastric issues. i spent most of my life struggling with bronchial issues. when i went low-carb and eliminated grains to lose weight a miracle fell upon me and in 4+ years i haven't been sick.

                    don't run off to whole paycheck for more mass-market milk. use your google-fu and look for a local dairy farmer. the flavor is far superior, they don't need stuff that is shelf-stable for weeks since they sell it more regionally AND you're supporting your local economy.

                    my b/f drinks milk, not me. but once i tasted that local grass-fed cream, the supermarket uht "cream" tastes totally gross.

                    am curious how that stuff turns into kefir since i can't make creme fraiche out of it? it's too dead.
                    As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                    Ernest Hemingway

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Bear View Post
                      Appreciate the sentiment. We are looking this week for organic non-UHT milk at Whole Foods (our source for the organic UHT). I believe the dairy that made our UHT also makes a non-UHT, but it may not be available here.

                      But trust me...I have examined every variable in my life that could have changed in the past year, and this culprit seems most suspect. While not a scientist, my degree is in mathematics and I have a reasonably well-developed critical thinking mentality. I will keep you posted...and thanks for this most recent post - it was gracious of you.
                      Most milk is pasteurized, but not ultra-pasteurized. They should be labeled clearly as to which process they have undergone.

                      Pretty much all the goat milks I've seen are UHT, a lot of Organic Valley products are, and anything packaged that doesn't need to be refrigerated.

                      The 365 brand conventional or organic are both pasteurized (but not ultra-). Most local milk producers will pasteurize but not UHT.

                      The funny thing about UHT is that it improves the shelf life, but only while the package is sealed. Once the package is opened you still only have about a week before it goes bad, regardless of the date on the outside.


                      A significant portion of my wife's family is still in the dairy business, and they all drink their own milk out of the tanks, and feed it to their kids from a very early age. The milking process includes cleaning and sterilizing each and every teat before hooking up the milker, and checking very carefully for mastitis (udder infection). Pasteurization allows the huge commercial dairy farms to make more mistakes and not be as clean, knowing that the nastiness will be heated out later. A small farm that drinks straight out of the tank for themselves is going to do everything well, or they will get sick themselves from it. They will dump the few gallons from one sick cow instead of contaminating the whole tank.

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                      • #41
                        In California I believe they do label UHT vs regular pasteurized. UHT is not good. The proteins in the milk are very denatured and the fats are pretty much destroyed, too. A lot of milk in the refrigerator cases at the market could actually be put on the unrefrigerated shelves with the appropriate packaging, but they don't because people have a perception about freshness when it's in the refrigerator case. You can still find Parmalat in the baking section. That was the company to first develop UHT. I avoid UHT dairy products whenever possible. I prefer yogurts, kefirs and cheeses anyway. Let the bacteria convert potentially unsafe dairy into delicious food for me.
                        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by jfreaksho View Post
                          Most milk is pasteurized, but not ultra-pasteurized. They should be labeled clearly as to which process they have undergone.

                          Pretty much all the goat milks I've seen are UHT, a lot of Organic Valley products are, and anything packaged that doesn't need to be refrigerated.

                          The 365 brand conventional or organic are both pasteurized (but not ultra-). Most local milk producers will pasteurize but not UHT.

                          The funny thing about UHT is that it improves the shelf life, but only while the package is sealed. Once the package is opened you still only have about a week before it goes bad, regardless of the date on the outside.


                          A significant portion of my wife's family is still in the dairy business, and they all drink their own milk out of the tanks, and feed it to their kids from a very early age. The milking process includes cleaning and sterilizing each and every teat before hooking up the milker, and checking very carefully for mastitis (udder infection). Pasteurization allows the huge commercial dairy farms to make more mistakes and not be as clean, knowing that the nastiness will be heated out later. A small farm that drinks straight out of the tank for themselves is going to do everything well, or they will get sick themselves from it. They will dump the few gallons from one sick cow instead of contaminating the whole tank.
                          Good info...thank you. Many years ago I worked on a ranch in Gillette, Wyoming, and milked cows and drank their milk...it wasn't until recently that I paid any attention to how large commercial dairies operate, and the conditions of the cows' health...it's not a pretty sight. I may try the 365 brand organic, regular pasteurized milk from Whole Foods, but honestly...I may completely give up cow's milk.

                          Any thoughts on coconut milk, or products like Almond Breeze?

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                            Actually, I just heard yesterday that pasturisation only gained widespread acceptance during WW1 when conscription caused inexperienced people to be put in most of the milking jobs. Before that people knew how to handle 'raw' milk hygenically and there wasn't a health problem.

                            p.s. We have a source of raw milk.
                            it actually goes back further than that, at least in the states. in the 1700- and 1800s, many rum distilleries were in urban ports like boston and nyc. after the civil war, production actually sped up and disposal of the "mash" was an expensive proposition in a city. so, the rum guys hooked up with some dairy cow owners and penned the cows right next door and fed them that. and yes, they were being handled by distillery workers, not farm hands. this became increasingly popular as the cows produced more milk than their grass-fed country cousins. (sound familiar?) however, since these were densely populated areas, without central plumbing or municipal sanitation policies, this was a VERY dirty business. PLUS, the cows were sick from eating an unnatural diet. pasteurizing the milk began in the 1880s and dramatically reduced tuberculosis, cholera, etc. especially in children -- who were drinking most of the milk.

                            the policy began from a flawed and strictly profit-driven model, and iirc, there was a 2-tier system in place that certified raw dairy farms, from which doctors often used the milk to treat illnesses. not sure when that went by the wayside.

                            the scale on which most milk is produced and distributed in the us makes raw impractical. the advertising to drink milk and eat cheese is stupendous here. americans now eat about 30 pounds of cheese a year -- and you KNOW it's mostly garbage "cheese" on big macs and dominos pizza.

                            raw remains illegal in my state, although i think you can get a work-around if you buy a cow-share at certain farms.

                            on the one hand it seems like unnecessary hobbling of small farmers, agreed. but on the other, there does need to be regular inspection of these facilities and there is not enough budget money for what currently exists. i don't have a good answer.
                            Last edited by noodletoy; 12-16-2013, 09:45 AM.
                            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                            Ernest Hemingway

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                            • #44
                              As an aside...if I gave up dairy permanently...how do I replace the calcium? What are some good, easy calcium sources (I know about broccoli...)?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Bear View Post
                                Good info...thank you. Many years ago I worked on a ranch in Gillette, Wyoming, and milked cows and drank their milk...it wasn't until recently that I paid any attention to how large commercial dairies operate, and the conditions of the cows' health...it's not a pretty sight. I may try the 365 brand organic, regular pasteurized milk from Whole Foods, but honestly...I may completely give up cow's milk.

                                Any thoughts on coconut milk, or products like Almond Breeze?
                                my b/f's grandfather owned a large and successful dairy business too.

                                again, look for a local farm. dunno why you're putting any faith in the products at wf. it's mass-market all the way.

                                dunno about coconut milk, but that almond breeze is a highly processed food, extracted and heated to death, then pumped back full of synthetic vitamins that are dubious at best as far as bioavailablity.
                                As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                                Ernest Hemingway

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