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  • ChocoTaco369, this is for you:

    Hey ChocoTaco,

    I have been reading Mark's Daily Apple for a year now and I just wanted to say that I COULD NOT DISAGREE WITH YOU MORE regarding losing weight by lowering caloric intake.

    I think you are DEAD WRONG about calories determining your weight-loss progress. About 2 years ago, my wife and I decided to try losing weight by calorie counting and using the helpful app LoseIt. We strove to lose a pound a week by denying ourselves 500 calories from our maintenance amount of calories. We kept our diet exactly the same as we always did (typically breakfast and dinner meals made at home, and lunches we went out for food). The only thing we did differently is accurately count up every calorie we ate and then made sure to stop before we exceeded it. We also exercised by bike riding for an hour every other day. On days we rode, we counted up exactly how much we burned and made sure to eat so that we were always under 500 calories.

    Well, this worked for about 3 months and VERY slowly started to lose weight. Some weeks we hit our 1 pound goal, some weeks we did not. After 3 months, we both hit a plateau and did not lose weight for 2 entire months. This didn't make any sense to us because the CICO method SHOULD in theory be working. But it did not. We couldn't explain it until we found out about paleo/primal and how even though we were watching our calories, we were not watching WHAT we were eating. Once we started primal, the weight started shedding off MUCH faster than when we were using LoseIt. And we were eating more than we ever had in the past. We just ate more real, wholesome food.

    I don't think that you are taking into account that terrible food choices can have a profound effect on weight loss (or the lack thereof). Furthermore, diet foods, and drinks that contain aspartame technically have 0 calories, but they wreck havoc upon your system, screwing with your insulin levels among other things. My friend tried losing weight by watching calories, but she was guzzling diet soda by the gallon. Needless to say, her weight loss went horribly and she eventually gave up calorie counting too.

  • #2
    Man overestimates his TDEE. Rants about it to a stranger on the internet. News at 11.
    Last edited by Eureka5280; 12-11-2013, 02:51 PM.
    __________________________________________________ _____________________________
    Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

    Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

    Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
    End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

    Comment


    • #3
      Wha? Did you even read what I wrote, Eureka? I never over or underestimated my TDEE. My point is that the CICO strategy doesn't work if you don't watch what you eat. You can't just eat fast food and Cheetos all day, be 500 calories under your maintenance weight, and assume everything's gonna be fine.

      I don't think Choco is taking into account that there is much more to weight loss than calorie counting. He states this many, many times in the various posts I've seen, and I want his opinion on the matter in this discussion.

      Comment


      • #4
        Humans: Laws of physics don't apply.

        Comment


        • #5
          Choco and others have stated many times that there are things that affect both sides of the CICO equation but at the end of the day calories still count. If (I am making this up for an example) diet coke f*cks up your metabolism to the point where you burn less calories this would have an effect on the CO part. If you have a jacked up thyroid this might have an effect on the CO part. If you underestimate what you eat this matters to the CI part etc.

          So yes CICO is not as simple as X in - y out = weightloss but that does not mean the whole concept is flawed.

          The guy who got me into primal lost 50 pounds eating primally. He then gained 30 pounds eating primally with more calories. Same foods different amounts. Yes, he weighed everything, kept a log etc. Yes, he did it on purpose.

          My wife has lost 90+ pounds. She eats carbs. She eats wheat. She drinks 6-8 diet cokes a day. She cut calories. It worked.

          Does that mean it works for everyone as written? No. But that does not make the premise false.

          Comment


          • #6
            Edit: Responding to OP...

            Thermodynamics would disagree with you. If you eat 500 calories below maintenance every day for a week, you will lose one pound. If you didn't lose a pound per week, you have either overestimated your daily burn rate, or underestimated your actual calorie intake.

            The laws of physics are not flexible.

            Also I'm pretty sure you have completely misunderstood ChocoTaco's position on this - he does not advocate eating junk food, particularly junk food with high fat content alongside high carbs.

            So yeah, you are tilting at windmills here.
            Last edited by Eureka5280; 12-11-2013, 03:07 PM.
            __________________________________________________ _____________________________
            Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

            Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

            Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
            End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

            Comment


            • #7
              Haha, laws of physics. Right. The human being is not a closed system.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                Haha, laws of physics. Right. The human being is not a closed system.
                Please enlighten me with your metaphysical view of how our bodies magically disobey the laws of thermodynamics. Do our calories sail away into the ether when we eat nothing but steak and eggs and liver?
                __________________________________________________ _____________________________
                Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

                Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

                Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
                End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by canio6 View Post

                  So yes CICO is not as simple as X in - y out = weightloss but that does not mean the whole concept is flawed.
                  That's really what I'm trying to say. CICO is not the end-all be-all of weight loss, which SO MANY PEOPLE fall into following conventional wisdom. There are other factors involved. Obviously, the entire concept is not flawed, I just think additional considerations need to be made. I also subscribe to Mark's belief that eating too many carbs results in fat gain--and it's very easy to go overboard with primal fruits, nuts, and vegetables.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Eureka5280 View Post
                    Please enlighten me with your metaphysical view of how our bodies magically disobey the laws of thermodynamics. Do our calories sail away into the ether when we eat nothing but steak and eggs and liver?
                    Okay, you're a lawnmower! Congratulations, the laws of thermodynamics apply to you, oh special snowflake!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                      Okay, you're a lawnmower! Congratulations, the laws of thermodynamics apply to you, oh special snowflake!
                      Perhaps we light incense and candles and use the law of attraction to "manifest" our fat stores away? Stare into a mirror and use positive self-talk and affirmations? Perhaps use binaural beats and tapping?

                      Thermodynamics applies to everyone sweetie, our bodies are machines that exist in physical space. Sorry, but you're embarrassing yourself.
                      __________________________________________________ _____________________________
                      Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

                      Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

                      Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
                      End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Eureka5280 View Post
                        Man overestimates his TDEE. Rants about it to a stranger on the internet. News at 11.
                        Sam Feltham disagrees:

                        Why I Didn't Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day | Smash The Fat LIVE

                        Why I DID Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day | Smash The Fat LIVE

                        Originally posted by Eureka5280 View Post
                        Please enlighten me with your metaphysical view of how our bodies magically disobey the laws of thermodynamics. Do our calories sail away into the ether when we eat nothing but steak and eggs and liver?
                        You are being obtuse by assuming that calories out remains constant regardless of the type and quantity of calories in. THAT's the fundamental flaw in CICO. If your TDEE is different for a different level of calorie intake (or gasp, different TYPE of calorie intake) then you can shout about thermodynamics all you like, you'll still be wrong.
                        Last edited by magicmerl; 12-11-2013, 03:26 PM.
                        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                        Griff's cholesterol primer
                        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                        bloodorchid is always right

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Euraka, using Thermodynamics, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY I lost more weight eating many more calories on the primal diet than when I ate significantly less on the strictly CICO diet?

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                            Sam Feltham disagrees:

                            Why I Didn't Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day | Smash The Fat LIVE

                            Why I DID Get Fat From Eating 5,000 Calories A Day | Smash The Fat LIVE


                            You are being obtuse by assuming that calories out remains constant regardless of what we eat. If your TDEE is different for a different level of calorie intake (or gasp, different TYPE of calorie intake) then you can shout about thermodynamics all you like, you'll still be wrong.
                            You are the one being obtuse. I never said a person's TDEE is a constant, I merely said you have to absorb fewer calories than you burn to lose weight. That is thermodynamics. And no, I'm still right. He doesn't disagree with me at all - the graphic 1/3 of the way down the page in your first link shows clearly that he thinks "fake food" slow the CO part of the equation. So obviously he recognizes that your body has to burn more than you store, and that improper food choices can block that from happening. I never said otherwise.

                            This forum is full of people who love to put words in other people's mouths and construct straw man arguments. It's pretty comical to have someone try and convince me that the physical laws of the planet somehow do not apply to the human body.
                            __________________________________________________ _____________________________
                            Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

                            Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

                            Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
                            End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Akraw View Post
                              Euraka, using Thermodynamics, PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY I lost more weight eating many more calories on the primal diet than when I ate significantly less on the strictly CICO diet?
                              Because the primal diet foods increased your metabolism/energy expenditure versus your clearly mis-named "strictly CICO" diet. What part of that is hard to understand exactly? Obviously your "strictly CICO" diet did not have enough calories being burned on the CO part of the equation.
                              __________________________________________________ _____________________________
                              Eureka5280: M / 38 / 235lbs / Goal: 180lbs

                              Diet: Currently experimenting with higher carb (Peat-esque) primal with emphasis on beef, dairy, seafood, sugar and a bit of starch on lifting days.

                              Activities: Started Stronglifts 5x5 on 3/1/14. Adding sprints and hikes soon.
                              End of Year Working Set Goals: Squats-250, Bench-200, DL-315

                              Comment

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