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  • Originally posted by oxide View Post

    Meanwhile, we are STILL struggling with the "calories out" part of the CI=CO equation. Until that gets hammered out, these discussions will never end either way. But according to PB, if you increase your fat burner hormones, now you can burn fat really well, and the CO speeds up quite a bit and you can handle more fat CI. This is what the original OP was saying.
    Yes oxide, that pretty much is what I was saying at the beginning before this thread got all muddled with thermodynamics, naked squats, and random insults.

    Comment


    • Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

      There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are and that the rules somehow don't apply. Maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.

      This is a great place to start:

      strengthcamp - YouTube

      Watch Elliot's videos and do what he tells you to do.

      For every difference between men and women, or older women and younger men, there are a thousand things that are exactly the same.





      Seriously.
      Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-15-2013, 10:08 PM.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
        Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

        There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are and that the rules somehow don't apply. Maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.

        This is a great place to start:

        strengthcamp - YouTube

        Watch Elliot's videos and do what he tells you to do.

        For every difference between men and women, or older women and younger men, there are a thousand things that are exactly the same.





        Seriously.
        Grandma is that you? Is this why you don't write?

        Comment


        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          Why are people still posting in this thread? Why is this at the top of the thread list still?

          There are A LOT of women on this forum that need to stop thinking that younger men are somehow a totally different species than they are ... maybe instead of using older age and gender as an excuse for why you'll never be everything you want to be, you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate ... stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals ... Seriously.
          Seriously??? Nah, this thread gets more pathetic and ridiculous by the hour. Seriously.
          I have great faith in fools; self-confidence, my friends call it.
          Edgar Allan Poe

          Comment


          • Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
            Do you have any research on the catabolism/anabolism ideas, or is it just something you came up with/read somewhere? I suppose there is potential in a theory like that. I'd be interested in reading more.
            Well its a bit of both really. I stumbled upon a web site produced by a university professor for his students and others, full of up-to date info (citing's from 2011, 2012 etc) on the human metabolism. It has a Diabetes's slant, but alot of unbiased info is there (just a professor rabbiting on about metabolism, not studying any kind of hypothesis or effect).

            MedBioStart

            look on the side section and pick a page to view. the "Insulin and Glucagon" page is awesome.

            Anyway that page gave me about 90% enlightenment and the rest was joining the dots with a bit of google Fu and thinking.


            but to summarize, these are the facts...

            Our body only detects or monitors one thing and that is Blood Glucose levels, everything else is run off that metric.

            Our bodies perpetually either excrete insulin or glucagon at varying ratios and amounts.

            The ratio of either hormone in the blood is solely dependent on the trend of Blood glucose, If it is above a tipping point (basal) a certain ratio of insulin will be excreted, if BG saturation moves higher, the insulin ratio increases. Same is true for glucagon except it operates on the down trend of blood glucose below the tipping point (basal).

            FFA levels operate outside of this system, meaning our bodies can't detect ffa levels in the blood, it could be high or low and the metabolism would be none the wiser. Fats can enter cells on their own but they cannot leave on their own.

            Insulin is the master builder of the body, It takes smaller molecules and helps the body build them into larger ones, ie it takes glucose and makes it into glycogen, it takes amino acids and turns them into protiens. it takes FFA's and turns them into triglycerides. Insulin is the anabolic hormone.

            Glucagon is the master breaker downer, it takes larger molecules and helps the body break them down into smaller ones. it converts glycogen into glucose, it converts triglycerides into FFA's, it converts amino acids into glucose. Glucagon is the catabolic hormone



            Now lets get down to the nitty gritty, regardless of the calorie amounts and macro types of any food, the body will detect changes in BG and act accordingly, this is all it knows how to do. ie release glucagon when BG is low and insulin when BG is high. lets look at what happens when we eat certain foods.

            Carbs.
            BG rises almost always above basal, insulin is released and all glucose in the blood above basal will be converted into larger "storage" molecules in certain areas (namely liver, muscle and fat cells). this happens quickly as the body prioritises storage when in excess.

            Fats.
            BG is almost always lower than basal after eating fats, so the body releases glucagon which breaks down all the larger storage molecules into usable energy molecules. for instance even while blood FFA's are rising glucagon still breaks down liver glycogen into glucose and Trigs into FFA's. Fats will still find their way into the bodies energy and storage cells even tho no insulin is present. cholymicrons do this.

            Protien.
            when amino's enter the blood stream, BG is still low, so glucagon stays dominant, this serves to convert the aminos into glucose, wich raise BG this turns down glucagon and raise insulin. this raised insulin then clears any excess glucose and we are back to low BG by wich more glucagon is released reraising BG and insulin. IN effect protien causes a balanced release of both hormones and the body is neither anabolic or catabolic.

            As you can see with the above, calorie intake correlates fairly well with our (creation/destruction) hormones, all tho a few gray areas are popping up already. with protien when the BG raises from glucagon's effect on the amino's, the increased insulin stores the amino's in other places like muscle. the same also applies to carbs, as insulin will shuttle the glucose into the liver and muscle in large amounts also. Fats are also hard to decifer as fat storage is still being reduced even in the presense of exogenous fats.

            More gray areas pop up when macros are combined...

            combine Carbs with Fat and the body will detect high BG and act accordingly, which is releasing insulin, which quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own. I would hazzard a guess that for a given time, much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

            combine carbs with protiens and all the protien calories are wasted as there will be little glucagon present to turn the aminos into glucose, instead the higher insulin will drive the aminos into muscle (if there are new muscle cells available to be built) and any excess will be excreted as urea. eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be converted into glucose to be either burned or stored as glycogen or fat.

            So in conclusion, "Calories in" correlates fairly well with anabolic and catabolic hormonal forces but there are also situations where the calorie in certain situations end up in a different spot (storage or energy stream) depending on what else is influencing the bodies hormones, ie stored calories can be less or more depending.
            Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 12-16-2013, 06:55 AM.
            A little primal gem - My Success Story
            Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

            Comment


            • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
              ... but to summarize, these are the facts...

              Our body only detects or monitors one thing and that is Blood Glucose levels, everything else is run off that metric. Our bodies perpetually either excrete insulin or glucagon at varying ratios and amounts ...
              Aha, the thread isn't completely derailed after all.

              Excellent post. Thanks for taking the trouble to write that up.
              I have great faith in fools; self-confidence, my friends call it.
              Edgar Allan Poe

              Comment


              • you should try to emulate the characteristics of the younger men you simultaneously obsessively love and jealously hate. Join a gym - a REAL gym, not Planet Fitness - pick up some weights and start doing what the young, attractive men do. Your attitudes might change if you stop using age and gender as a crutch to half-ass your goals and you actually see that older women can be pretty damn strong and lean if they TRY.
                Oh I do, I work out 5 days a week, 275 lb deadlift, 195 lb squat, keep a pretty tight diet and do HIIT style cardio and while I will give myself strong, lean is pretty elusive. I work my ass off in the gym and it shows in my lifting numbers, but not so much my figure. I watch guys half ass what I do, and they admittedly halfass their diet and they do lean out quickly. I'll give that I am fighting many years of nutritional abuse heaped on my body.

                To Gorbag's comment- I do think for me, fat loss is slow, non-linear, with a lot of stalls, so it is difficult to judge the effectiveness of what I am doing.

                I will say, that in your late 30's/40's a woman's body makes some very big changes and they can be hard to manage. Your metabolism slows, period. Even if you work out. It's really frustrating to deal with. I don't know if men have a similar shift.

                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                Comment


                • ChocoTaco369, this is for you:

                  Damn magnolia! Strong girl!

                  I agree with you it is harder for girls to get the same immediate response to weight lifting as guys do. Less testosterone... But keep lifting and it will show in your figure too. I have only been grain-free/paleo for 1.5 years but I have cut out junk food (and relied on at most 1 serving of quinoa/brown rice/oatmeal and the the rest veggies/lean meat) for 5-6 years now. Every year I get a little bit better in shape...and in the past 4-5 months where I took lifting 10x more seriously is when I saw sculpting finally going on.
                  Last edited by turquoisepassion; 12-16-2013, 05:54 AM.
                  ------
                  HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                  My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                  Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

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                  • On the food combining:

                    combine Carbs with Fat and ... much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

                    This agrees with the Grok scenario. I don't know of any naturally occurring hunter-gather foods which are both carby and fatty. Maybe avocados?

                    quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own.

                    So fat is best eaten on its own? Woo-hoo, Bulletproof Coffee!!

                    eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be stored into fat cells.

                    I don't get this one. So fatty meats will trigger the response to turn protein into fat? Should we be eating fat-free chicken breast on workout days?

                    And what about the people here who combine everything into one-meal per day? But then, they're IF-ing, and I don't know what the insulin response is to that. I guess it's just a constant metabolic tug-o-war. No wonder CO is such a mystery. It changes with every meal.
                    5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by oxide View Post
                      On the food combining:

                      combine Carbs with Fat and ... much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

                      This agrees with the Grok scenario. I don't know of any naturally occurring hunter-gather foods which are both carby and fatty. Maybe avocados?

                      quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own.

                      So fat is best eaten on its own? Woo-hoo, Bulletproof Coffee!!

                      eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be stored into fat cells.

                      I don't get this one. So fatty meats will trigger the response to turn protein into fat? Should we be eating fat-free chicken breast on workout days?

                      And what about the people here who combine everything into one-meal per day? But then, they're IF-ing, and I don't know what the insulin response is to that. I guess it's just a constant metabolic tug-o-war. No wonder CO is such a mystery. It changes with every meal.
                      since you're all in to the grok scenario, how/when is fat ever eaten on it's own? most game animals are very lean. unless you're subsisting off of polar bears or seals, you're eating lean meat. fat isn't abundant anywhere in the animal kingdom. hence the importance of eating an animal nose to tail. so bulletproof coffee is still dumb and certainly not grok-like at all.

                      to answer your next question though, I think lean meats on heavy lifting days are probably the best bet. lean meats and carbs. you want to be as anabolic as possible for recovery purposes

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                        Oh I do, I work out 5 days a week, 275 lb deadlift, 195 lb squat, keep a pretty tight diet and do HIIT style cardio and while I will give myself strong, lean is pretty elusive. I work my ass off in the gym and it shows in my lifting numbers, but not so much my figure. I watch guys half ass what I do, and they admittedly halfass their diet and they do lean out quickly. I'll give that I am fighting many years of nutritional abuse heaped on my body.

                        To Gorbag's comment- I do think for me, fat loss is slow, non-linear, with a lot of stalls, so it is difficult to judge the effectiveness of what I am doing.

                        I will say, that in your late 30's/40's a woman's body makes some very big changes and they can be hard to manage. Your metabolism slows, period. Even if you work out. It's really frustrating to deal with. I don't know if men have a similar shift.
                        I work out, lift weights etc and at 41, it's a lot harder to move the needle. And I have to be a lot more careful about what I eat cause if I gain weight, it wants to stay. Once I got my body to a normal sort of spot, the calories I eat make an impact. If I eat fruit and carbs, my fat intake needs to be lower. If I eat protein and fat, my carbs have to be lower and I can still gain weight on too much fat.

                        Janie, I'm sorry for the unsympathetic posts from earlier - you've had a long struggle with food and should be proud of getting to a better place. I just got fed up with the sniping because all it does is justify the other person's opinion when arguments slip away from reason into attacking. That usually means you've been outgunned. I doubt there are many women on this board who haven't jumped into crazy diets at some point. I certainly did. That s why I have no problem characterizing it as abuse done to the body by choice. I can't blame CW or anyone for the fact that I spent years caring more about skinny than strong, ate rabbit food, binged on fatty/salty/sweet things when the restriction was too much. Shifting blame turns me into some kind of victim who could be duped into dumb choices again and I'm not. I made those decisions, not SnackWells or Hostess. I chose to believe that whatever new diet trend was the best thing and ignored my body's protests. That's on me, not anyone else. It became a lot easier to change my eating when I made myself responsible for food choices. Make no mistake though - I did abuse my body for years with stupid nutrition decisions.

                        That's still hard - I read all of the threads and battles here on MDA and if I'm not careful, I'll start listening to Kimchininja's belief that even fruit-based sugars are the devil (especially for women who need to be thin to be aesthetically pleasing lol) or Ripped saying that a woman who is 5'5" and 130 needs to lose 20 lbs and here's how she should do it. I'm a little defensive over fruit, ha. I hate to see it demonized since my n=1 is that fruit is one of the most rational food stuffs that humans should put in their mouths. It was meant to be eaten, at least by me. obviously, it doesn't work for everyone. It took a long time to get here though and I had to let myself gain weight after a particularly stupid bout of eating rolled turkey slices with laughing cow cheese wedges (just 3 slices of meat and one wedge of "cheese") as a major food group. I got really skinny, really weak and as soon as I put normal food back in my body, I gained weight. Go figure. It's still no one's fault but my own.

                        Sorry for lashing out at you - you are right that the forums here should be more supportive and accepting of variance in nutritional needs.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by oxide View Post
                          On the food combining:

                          combine Carbs with Fat and ... much more fat will end up in storage if a little carbs are added to the meal.

                          This agrees with the Grok scenario. I don't know of any naturally occurring hunter-gather foods which are both carby and fatty. Maybe avocados?

                          quickly stores all surplus energy, glucose and fats equally. this is the opposite of what happens when fat is ingested on its own.

                          So fat is best eaten on its own? Woo-hoo, Bulletproof Coffee!!

                          eat the same calorie amount of protien with fat and its likely most of the protien will be stored into fat cells.

                          I don't get this one. So fatty meats will trigger the response to turn protein into fat? Should we be eating fat-free chicken breast on workout days?

                          And what about the people here who combine everything into one-meal per day? But then, they're IF-ing, and I don't know what the insulin response is to that. I guess it's just a constant metabolic tug-o-war. No wonder CO is such a mystery. It changes with every meal.
                          I edited the one you had trouble understanding, proteins metabolised by glucagon end up as glucose wich then can be stored as the body sees fit. Sorry for confusing ya.

                          The one mealers will have a large insulin hit from the carbs, the fat will be also stored by the insulin or cholymicrons, the protien will be pushed into muscle cells if there is any uptake for that or else processed as waste in the urine, or after BG has dropped converted into glucose. After this, the person will have glucagon coursing their veins for the rest of the day breaking down all the energy they stored in their " time of excess"


                          Sent from my iPhone
                          Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 12-16-2013, 01:21 PM.
                          A little primal gem - My Success Story
                          Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                          • I agree with you it is harder for girls to get the same immediate response to weight lifting as guys do.
                            To be fair, I have NO issue getting stronger. It's the fat loss that is hard to me.

                            I know 2 men who have amazeballs bodies. They are both lean and muscular and the epitome of sexy lean. They both follow 4 days a week lifting, and both strive to eat "75% clean". By clean, I mean good protein, carbs etc. and 25% junk. One is 50 plus, the other is mid 30's. No similarly aged women with equivalent bodies are eating 25% junk and not doing any cardio.

                            http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                            Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                            • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                              To Gorbag's comment- I do think for me, fat loss is slow, non-linear, with a lot of stalls, so it is difficult to judge the effectiveness of what I am doing.
                              Yeah, weight loss is seldom linear, especially if dieting for a longer period, but personally I can "feel it" if in a energy deficit, but if the weight does not move after weeks when I have been strict, then I'll do a controlled re-feed, and that usually makes thing going again...

                              Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                              I will say, that in your late 30's/40's a woman's body makes some very big changes and they can be hard to manage. Your metabolism slows, period. Even if you work out. It's really frustrating to deal with. I don't know if men have a similar shift.
                              I am a male and now in my fifties and my metabolism is on fire after ramping up my energy output the last years i.e. training volume and intensity...
                              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                              - Schopenhauer

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                              • I am a male and now in my fifties and my metabolism is on fire after ramping up my energy output the last years i.e. training volume and intensity...
                                Yeah, female just turned 40. My metabolism is slower than it was 5 years ago, despite the weight training and HIIT.

                                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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