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  • Originally posted by JoanieL View Post
    Thank you. I didn't want to be the only one who remembered his flip flop. The most important thing I've learned from him is that on the internet, bloviation tops information.
    You should learn to flip-flop on things sometimes. I'm proud that I can admit I'm wrong in the face of better information and rigorous self-experimentation. Most of you guys are too proud and would rather claw at a concrete wall for years until your fingers bleed than admit you're wrong, turn around and use the door.

    Developed opinions through self-experimentation vs religious belief. Many on this forum are in the latter.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • Don't any of you have jobs? Christ.
      My job is boring; it is more fun to bloviate and try and get men to take shirts off.

      http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
      Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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      • I'm really more of a trenchcoat flasher. I think ball shots are frowned upon here.
        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

        Comment


        • I'm really more of a trenchcoat flasher. I think ball shots are frowned upon here.
          I'm hopped up on enough carbs today that it would entertain me. I know it would entertain a few others as well.

          http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
          Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

          Comment


          • In a way, Choco reminds me of myself when I was in my early 20s. I thought I had figured the bodybuilding out but as new info came in I realized how little I had actually known. In my 30s-40s I looked at the professional bodybuilders and thought to myself they would suck if they had to survive in a paleolithic world so I applied what I imagined would be a build for an ideal hunter/gatherer. Seems to me that's what men and women find the most attractive builds. Problems was, I was into the AMA's diet guidelines and found trying to keep the bodyfat down was tough. With paleo/primal it's now easy keeping the excess fat off.

            Today, I use an evolutionary template for what I think is optimal body build, exercise, and diet by asking some basic questions around a healthy hunter/gatherer's needs.

            Evolutionary biology is all about survival. The mind might know it's living in modern times but the body doesn't. It still thinks it's paleo.

            Weightlifting, from my POV, sends a signal to the body that it's survival was just compromised. My workout needs to be intense and I should feel fatigued when the routine is done. If my body thinks there's enough quality calories in its environment it can respond by adding new muscle once it's recovered from the effort. Begs the question, though: What, exactly, are those quality macros/micros my the body needs capable of sending the desired signal to put on extra muscle and to be optimally healthy? For fitness minded people that's what all these nutritional debates are all about.

            CICO only describes what's happening. If you eat more calories than you need then you will put on weight (it might go to muscle, it might go to fat, or to both). What CICO doesn't do, IMO, is establish cause and effect. It doesn't explain why someone is eating more calories than they need or why they might be moving less.

            While carrying some fat is a positive survival strategy, obesity is not. If you are obese you ain't going be the one outrunning the bears. So I'd expect some kind of (hormonal) feedback mechanism that regulates hunger and satiety. Because I believe that, and since there's an "obesity epidemic" I wonder what might be interfering with fat/energy regulation that causes some people to become obese? For me, the ancestral health is all about asking and trying to find the answers to those question. I think it's excess starch and fructose. When I was a kid I couldn't eat starches like white rice or pancakes (unless they were doctored up). I can eat them now but I can think of foods I'd rather eat. Too much sugar in the form of taffy, cotton candy, candied yams, or pecan pie made me sick and lethargic. I now think it's interesting that those are the very things excluded from a primal diet.

            I know from personal experience that if I eat a high starchy meal one night (like a lot of bread and pizza), I will wake up the next morning hungry as hell. Why is that, when I normally can skip breakfast and often do? Taubes would argue it's the high insulin kick caused by the excess carbs. Maybe. I don't really need to know the biochemistry to do self observations. CICO doesn't explain why that happens. It only describes that I'll likely ate a lot more than usual the next morning.
            Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

            Comment


            • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
              I'm hopped up on enough carbs today that it would entertain me. I know it would entertain a few others as well.
              In that case I hope you have a reaaaaaaaaaaaaally big monitor.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by not on the rug View Post
                could the result of that argument be that choco actually learned something from the discussion and added that new knowledge to his repertoire?
                I really don't know where he learned what, but I think it's safe to say he did not come to accept that calories matter from Paleobird.
                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                  CICO doesn't explain why that happens. It only describes that I'll likely ate a lot more than usual the next morning.
                  CICO doesn't attempt to explain intricacies. All CICO says is that if you overeat, you'll gain weight and if you undereat, you'll lose weight.

                  That's it. It's perfect.

                  Anything assumed further than that is brought on back lack of reading comprehension by the individual. People struggle with body composition because they eat poor quality foods and exercise completely incorrectly, and it lends to a flabby, weak physique instead of a strong, lean physique. Having a complete lack of understanding regarding the physiological response that humans have to different types of foods and exercises, then blaming "CICO" for that is ridiculous. That's like blaming getting into a car accident on the current phase of the moon. I guess you COULD do that if you wanted to, but you'd look insane. Somehow, "insane" has become the norm with the diet and exercise movement.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • in that case i hope you have a reaaaaaaaaaaaaally big monitor.
                    lol

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                    Comment


                    • I've learned that backspace is an excellent key to have on the key board..

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                      • all *i* took away from this thread was Mr. Anthony + Tomfoolery + hot tub

                        =

                        I'm there.


                        ~Anonymous

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                          CICO doesn't attempt to explain intricacies. All CICO says is that if you overeat, you'll gain weight and if you undereat, you'll lose weight.

                          That's it. It's perfect.

                          Anything assumed further than that is brought on back lack of reading comprehension by the individual. People struggle with body composition because they eat poor quality foods and exercise completely incorrectly, and it lends to a flabby, weak physique instead of a strong, lean physique. Having a complete lack of understanding regarding the physiological response that humans have to different types of foods and exercises, then blaming "CICO" for that is ridiculous. That's like blaming getting into a car accident on the current phase of the moon. I guess you COULD do that if you wanted to, but you'd look insane. Somehow, "insane" has become the norm with the diet and exercise movement.
                          It's perfect math that isn't relevant to the question of Why there's so much obesity. What you said in the second paragraph is too generalized, isn't specific enough, that it begs questions: What is proper exercise? I've been asking and experimenting with that question (and reading a lot) for dang near 40 years. It depends upon one's goals. What are the optimal macros of carbs, protein, and fats? The answer coming from the so called experts with nutritional degrees and MD behind their name is all over the map...from Atkins, to Ornish, to Paleo, to the Zone.
                          Would I be putting a grain-feed cow on a fad diet if I took it out of the feedlot and put it on pasture eating the grass nature intended?

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                            CICO doesn't attempt to explain intricacies. All CICO says is that if you overeat, you'll gain weight and if you undereat, you'll lose weight.

                            That's it. It's perfect.

                            Anything assumed further than that is brought on back lack of reading comprehension by the individual. People struggle with body composition because they eat poor quality foods and exercise completely incorrectly, and it lends to a flabby, weak physique instead of a strong, lean physique. Having a complete lack of understanding regarding the physiological response that humans have to different types of foods and exercises, then blaming "CICO" for that is ridiculous. That's like blaming getting into a car accident on the current phase of the moon. I guess you COULD do that if you wanted to, but you'd look insane. Somehow, "insane" has become the norm with the diet and exercise movement.
                            Or if your over-respire....or under-respire....or....

                            I think a big variable, as noted by some other posters, is that the CO part of the equation is really hard to get a handle on because it is more than just amount of exercise. There is a lot of hormonal interactions that regulate metabolism and vary depending on what is in the diet and what the physical demands on the body are.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Scott F View Post
                              It's perfect math that isn't relevant to the question of Why there's so much obesity. What you said in the second paragraph is too generalized, isn't specific enough, that it begs questions: What is proper exercise? I've been asking and experimenting with that question (and reading a lot) for dang near 40 years. It depends upon one's goals. What are the optimal macros of carbs, protein, and fats? The answer coming from the so called experts with nutritional degrees and MD behind their name is all over the map...from Atkins, to Ornish, to Paleo, to the Zone.
                              It is absolutely perfect math. We as a society eat too many calories and don't move around enough.

                              What are our dietary staples: grain flour deep fried in seed oil and coated in sugar. Most processed foods can be explained by that simple recipe. The foods are extremely calorie dense, they contain very little nutrition and a lot of irritating lectins that tend to suppress thyroid function, then after eating are massive vitamin-free calorie bolus, we sit on our ass at a desk all day and never get any sun. That's the perfect recipe for the obesity epidemic - we're overweight and nutritionally starving at the same time.

                              Seems pretty obvious to me.

                              Forget about macro ratios. Eat meat, eggs, fruits and tubers. Skip the seeds and weeds. Since last Sunday, I've eaten 4 16+oz NY strip steaks, 2 dozen eggs, a half gallon of whole milk, 4 quarts of organic yogurt, a 5 lb bag of sweet potatoes, a 5 lb bag of white potatoes, 2 plantains and half a dozen apples, not to mention two bags of carrots, 6 cucumbers, 2 heads of romaine and an 11oz brick of goat cheese. I have 7 lbs of london broil in the crock pot as we speak. I'm going to go home and make baked enchiladas in nixtamalized organic corn tortillas. I weigh 145 lbs. Excuse me, I'm off to benchpress.
                              Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 12-13-2013, 02:43 PM.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

                                To the OP: you either screwed up counting your calorie intake, you screwed up calculating your TDEE, or most likely of all - both. There is no way you can track your calorie output, either, so that's kind of a crazy statement.

                                Different foods, exercises and metabolic conditions influence your "calories out." If you want to lose weight most effectively, you should be trying to maximize the hormones that generate the best state for body composition. This is healthy thyroid function, high testosterone, low estrogen and youthful labs for pregnenolone and DHEA, since they are the precursors for all your hormones.

                                The best way to do those things: high protein intake, adequate fats AND carbohydrates from quality sources (saturated animal/coconut/dairy fats preferred, fruits and potatoes preferred for carbs) and low levels of toxic or irritating foods (you know what they are). Reduce "added calories" from added fats/oils, added refined sugars, drinking calories, alcohol, etc. Yada, yada.

                                Oh yea, and lift heavy weights and sprint 1-2 times a week. Simple.
                                Ah well, if that's what you truly believe then I really have no issue with you or your opinions on the matter. It would appear that I may have misjudged you. I'm not too proud to admit that I was wrong, and sorry to the rest of the community that I wasted your time with 15 pages of unnecessary content.

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