Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Fruititarians (especially Durianrider)

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    I don't see veganism as a biological option in the long term. There is no data to support this claim, and lots of reasons to suspect it is less than optimal, if not impossible to be healthy on a vegan diet. See vitamin A, B, E, D, and K2.
    There is simply not enough calories to sustain veganism in the wild no matter where you live. Micronutrients don't really have much to do with it. There are long term examples of vegans so obviously Micros are gotten when you have enough food available. Btw you are aware that all those vitamins are either available in plant foods and/or synthized by the body, right?

    Bottom line, no civilzation was ever vegan because before we had grocery stores, life was entirely about the next meal. Overlooking animals because of personal beliefs was not a (smart) option. Also our ancestors knew nothing of "health" the way we think of it today. Animal products didn't make them ill, therefor animal products were good food. Veganism is a fairy tale for the financially wealthy and the deluded dreamer, there is no scientific bases to back it up.

    Now arguing gray areas like lacto/ovo vegetarians vs vlc carnivores...

    Comment


    • I am meaning it very literally -- omnivores are omnivores, they are opportunists. As such, it doesn't matter what the historical evidence of long-term veg*n existence is per se, only that it's an expression of how omnivores are as a concept/construct.

      Likewise, the existence of veganism within the human experience -- even though outliers -- is simply as it is. It doesn't matter *how much or how long* it exists historically, only that it does. And this is only relevant as further explanation of the concept of omnivores as opportunists (in terms of food consumption).

      I never asserted that it was environmentally sustainable, I never asserted that it didn't have nutritional issues (though many aspects of our lifestyles have health affects that we may overlook for our own reasons), and I never asserted that it was absolutely appropriate or ideal.

      Simply that it is possible by the nature of omnivorism and that there is historical precedent for it.

      And that beyond this, I'm simply asking people to respect other people's space and choices. You don't have to like their choices. You may think their choices are unhealthy. But really, it's Noneya Biznez what someone else is doing. You do you. Let other people do themselves.

      And if they ask for your input, you give it.

      When I get questions like those in the OP, I figure they might as well run their n=1. Maybe they find something out -- maybe that it works, maybe that it doesn't. I don't need to convince them that this is the One True Way because our guy is leaner than their guy or healthier or whatever. I don't need to tear real people down, make fun of them, etc as a way of asserting that my diet and lifestyle is better.

      My health and well being speaks for itself, and if someone asks me about it, I tell them. No big deal. But if someone asks me about some other diet, based on their observations, I think the old "try it if you want to" is not big deal. They'll discover soon enough what works for them.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by MEversbergII View Post
        You reminded me of this quote:

        "Everything is right for me that is right for you, O Universe. Nothing for me is too early or too late that comes in due time for you. Everything is fruit to me that your seasons bring, O Nature. From you are all things, in you are all things, to you all things return." -Marcus Aurelius

        M.
        That's the second MA quote I've enjoyed. I guess I need to read some MA for myself!
        Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

        Comment


        • Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
          There is simply not enough calories to sustain veganism in the wild no matter where you live. Micronutrients don't really have much to do with it. There are long term examples of vegans so obviously Micros are gotten when you have enough food available. Btw you are aware that all those vitamins are either available in plant foods and/or synthized by the body, right?

          Bottom line, no civilzation was ever vegan because before we had grocery stores, life was entirely about the next meal. Overlooking animals because of personal beliefs was not a (smart) option. Also our ancestors knew nothing of "health" the way we think of it today. Animal products didn't make them ill, therefor animal products were good food. Veganism is a fairy tale for the financially wealthy and the deluded dreamer, there is no scientific bases to back it up.

          Now arguing gray areas like lacto/ovo vegetarians vs vlc carnivores...
          Raw veganism in particular, as raw plant material is less bioavailable than the same cooked food, so it's easier to become severely malnourished.

          Comment


          • If you look at a medieval Europe (circa 9th-10th century), the diet was predominantly lacto-vegetarian, relying heavily on lentils for proteins. It's basically was grains, beans, cheese and brewed alcohol. Meat as a major source of food is just as rare in the human diet as veganism. Being an omnivore as Zoebird postulated is inherent to a human. How it expresses itself and what is an optimal diet for an individual baring environmental restrictions is...

            My health and well being speaks for itself, and if someone asks me about it, I tell them. No big deal. But if someone asks me about some other diet, based on their observations, I think the old "try it if you want to" is not big deal. They'll discover soon enough what works for them.
            In other words, I 100% agree with Zoebird.

            I am a strong omnivore, lol. I was trying to have a lacto-vegetarian day yesterday, and then I was cutting a roast Too bad if frutarianism or raw veganism is the way for me to lose weight!
            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
              There is simply not enough calories to sustain veganism in the wild no matter where you live.
              Agree with you there.
              Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
              Micronutrients don't really have much to do with it. There are long term examples of vegans so obviously Micros are gotten when you have enough food available. Btw you are aware that all those vitamins are either available in plant foods and/or synthized by the body, right?
              Yeah, there are long-term vegans in modern day times, but they're not healthy. Vitamin A, for example, is not available in plant foods (unless you are willing to play shadow games and call beta carotene Vitamin A), and is very poorly synthesized in humans from beta carotene. B12 is a dietary necessity for health. There's no naturally-occuring vegan source of B12. Do you want to go vitamin by vitamin?

              Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
              Bottom line, no civilzation was ever vegan because before we had grocery stores, life was entirely about the next meal. Overlooking animals because of personal beliefs was not a (smart) option. Also our ancestors knew nothing of "health" the way we think of it today.
              This is a little bit patronizing. Remember that for tens of thousands of years, every generation contained humans smart enough to be rocket scientists. And that these people had easy, pleasant lives for the most part (see "Stone Age Economics" by Marshall Sahlins)

              Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
              Animal products didn't make them ill, therefor animal products were good food.
              You realize we didn't come into existence from a people who were in a constant state of famine for several tens of thousands of generations, right?

              Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
              Veganism is a fairy tale for the financially wealthy and the deluded dreamer, there is no scientific bases[sic] to back it up.
              Yeah, their propaganda machine is as strong as vegans are weak. I hope Santa brings every one of them a tub of Whey Protein Isolate for Christmas.
              The Champagne of Beards

              Comment


              • I don't see veganism as a biological option in the long term. There is no data to support this claim, and lots of reasons to suspect it is less than optimal, if not impossible to be healthy on a vegan diet. See vitamin A, B, E, D, and K2.
                I feel like a lot of "for health reasons" vegans cheat. Like, people talk a good game about "strict diets", but you know they cheat on the regular. I knew a lot of "strict vegans" who would admit to eating Thanksgiving Turkey to get their B-12. If they admit that, you know they eat animal products more frequently. I'd say I ate eggs or dairy every other week while being a vegan. Haha, yeah, I'd be a bitch about some parmesan in my pasta sauce, but then go eat a pizza with real cheese.

                Now as for "ethical vegans" I think they might stray less or not at all, but often they are the ones that sure as hell don't look healthy.

                http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                Comment


                • 80-20 Vegans?
                  My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                  When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                    If you look at a medieval Europe (circa 9th-10th century), the diet was predominantly lacto-vegetarian, relying heavily on lentils for proteins. It's basically was grains, beans, cheese and brewed alcohol. Meat as a major source of food is just as rare in the human diet as veganism. Being an omnivore as Zoebird postulated is inherent to a human. How it expresses itself and what is an optimal diet for an individual baring environmental restrictions is...
                    I take issue with the idea that people who are denied meat for socioeconomic and religious reasons are "vegetarians" in the common sense. During the Middle Ages, those in the noble class ate mostly meat, and the poor ate meat to the extent they could obtain it, often risking their lives to hunt, a privilege that was reserved for nobility.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by magnolia1973 View Post
                      I feel like a lot of "for health reasons" vegans cheat.
                      Well, then they aren't vegans.
                      The Champagne of Beards

                      Comment


                      • Well, then they aren't vegans.
                        Exactly.

                        http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                        Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

                        Comment


                        • I take issue with the idea that people who are denied meat for socioeconomic and religious reasons are "vegetarians" in the common sense. During the Middle Ages, those in the noble class ate mostly meat, and the poor ate meat to the extent they could obtain it, often risking their lives to hunt, a privilege that was reserved for nobility.
                          I did not say that they were vegetarians by choice. Only that the natural experiment shows that human will be able to survive on a diet low in meat, and that it was not uncommon in the past, with at least those of us of European descent likely come from a long line of people who ate very little meat.

                          It's like fasting - normally not done by choice like modern IF, but done in replication of the same socio-economic pressures that existed in the past.
                          Last edited by Leida; 12-10-2013, 08:58 AM.
                          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                            I did not say that they were vegetarians by choice. Only that the natural experiment shows that human will be able to survive on a diet low in meat, and that it was not uncommon in the past, with at least those of us of European descent likely come from a long line of people who ate very little meat.

                            It's like fasting - normally not done by choice like modern IF, but done in replication of the same socio-economic pressures that existed in the past.
                            We can survive on nothing but Lean Cuisines and pepsi for years and years. Our hair will fall out, our reproductive organs will lie flaccid, and our skin will turn into more of a pale, pasty sludge than a solid barrier between our internal organs and the outside world, but we can live on it. Doesn't make it a good dietary choice.
                            The Champagne of Beards

                            Comment


                            • Absolutely, but a diet low in meat & high in legumes, dairy and grain that were not processed, canned and laced with toxic additives does not have a health-destroying effect. For a lot of folks it is probably far closer to what their predecessors ate and adapted to than a regimen that is very high in meat. More meat often helps when the meat in the diet is far too low, but predominantly meat is probably just as much at odds with human diet as predominately fruit and vegetables.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                                Absolutely, but a diet low in meat & high in legumes, dairy and grain that were not processed, canned and laced with toxic additives does not have a health-destroying effect. For a lot of folks it is probably far closer to what their predecessors ate and adapted to than a regimen that is very high in meat. More meat often helps when the meat in the diet is far too low, but predominantly meat is probably just as much at odds with human diet as predominately fruit and vegetables.
                                Well I sure don't agree that this is what the literature says, but it's still night and day to compare a diet largely comprised of vegetables that contains meat and dairy to one that is absolutely devoid of animal products.
                                The Champagne of Beards

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X