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Some interesting thoughts involving fruits, vegetables, and protein.

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  • #46
    Originally posted by AMonkey View Post
    You don't have to eat them all in one meal, but say you were only eating pineapple's for 6 months you would become deficient in leucine. By comparison you could eat dairy, eggs or animal of only one type (e.g. eggs) and never be deficient. So you do need to mix up the veggies you eat, though I imagine your body can cope with deficiencies for days or even weeks.



    0.5g of protein supplementation per kg of body weight is beneficial for judo
    Increased adaptability of young ju... [J Sports Med Phys Fitness. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    The effect of whey protein supp... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI

    40g of protein supplenentation showed greatest improvements in lean and non fat body composition
    The effects of protein and amino acid su... [J Strength Cond Res. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    1.2g/kg of protein supplementation showed improvements in lifting and lean muscle gain
    Effect of whey and soy protein ... [Int J Sport Nutr Exerc Metab. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

    I'll add to this later.
    Ok, I don't know where to get the full studies from (more than just the abstract) so that I can see the full methods. So I can only comment on the summaries. Let me list them 1-4.

    1. In this study they don't give a placebo. This makes the study flawed since belief can change performance. Additionally, they don't give actual numbers in the abstract indicating what they actually consider "significant". "Significant" could mean anything. The total number of participants was small as well.

    2. Good, they did a placebo. However, they gave no quantities to compare. And the total number of participants was small. We know that creatine causes an increase in water weight. How do we know that the protein didn't cause in increase in "lean tissue" by an increased amount of undigested in the digestive system? Also, how reliable was their method of measuring "lean tissue"?

    3. Casein is a slow digesting protein compared to the others. How do we know the increase in FFM wasn't due to an increase of undigested food in the digestive system?

    4. What are they referring to as "lean tissue"? Again, how do we know it isn't just undigested food in the digestive system? How do we know there wasn't any sodium in their supplements, that which would cause an increase in LBM due to a retention of water weight?

    My summary?:
    I don't think you can conclude anything from those abstracts alone.
    But this makes me wake up and realize something else. What about the studies sited by Brad Pilon? When you're reading a book, it's a lot easier to just accept what the author is saying just to make it easy reading. In reality, I'd have to look at those studies as well.

    However, I can comment from my own personal experience. Glycogen, creatine, and calories are all factors that seem to make a difference in strength. But I don't think that decreases in muscle actually happen that fast. I've lost a lot of weight. I've fasted many times, even up to 4 days. I lost strength due to the weight loss. But then it comes back quick as soon as I start eating more. To me that's an indication that I've only lost strength temporarily due to a lack of energy, but I didn't lose any muscle.

    Those studies actually remind me of the studies that Arthur Jones was siting that he was using to promote his ideas of doing one one set to failure. His claim was that the difference in strength increases from 1 set or 3 sets were insignificant. However, when I actually looked at the numbers and did the math, my calculations were that such "insignificant" strength differences add up over a year. So to me, yes, 3 sets delivers more significant strength increases than 1 set.

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    • #47
      Anyways folks, thinking about the studies like that, it really makes me want to kick myself in the ass for reading books and over-thinking this diet stuff. Why? Well, it's got to be a lot simpler than we make it out to be. If we can't gather anything meaningful out of countless studies, what does that tell you? Perhaps anecdotal evidence means a lot more than the actual studies.

      So speaking of anecdotal evidence, what can we say about protein? I know that before they had protein supplements, they had strong men. I also know for myself that I was able to get bigger and stronger without worrying too much about protein. I got about as strong as I could. I also know enough to know that lower reps yield a greater limit strength to weight ratio. I also know that if you eat too much food you get fat, and if you get too fat you also get sick. Since fasting didn't seem to cause me to lose strength, it also probably didn't cause me to lose muscle, and if that didn't cause me to lose muscle, neither can a relatively low (not extreme) protein diet won't either. And I also know that if my body is done growing, I can eat all the protein I want, but it isn't going to make me grow any more muscle.

      All I'm saying is keep it simple and look at all the reasons why people believe you need so much protein. The evidence is inconclusive. There isn't any evidence as far as I know that proves you need any more or less protein. (Except for maybe the studies that Brad sites? I'd have to look at it.) Even if Brad was correct, 60 grams of protein (on average) isn't hard to get at all. And especially if you like meat, you'll eat it, and such won't be a problem at all.

      Also, obviously we can eat meat and live off it. And eating too much of anything and everything will surely make you fat. So eat it if you want. I still will. It's all about context.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Ripped View Post


        [B]....FINALLY!!! I have someone who finally at least mentions about the studies...
        Thought I did that for you in my first post. You can lead a horse to water.....

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        • #49
          Originally posted by MarkChopper View Post
          Go to nutrition data.com, type in pineapple, go to protein and expand. Pineapple, along with pretty much every other plant food has all essential amino acids. Vegans do not have protein deficiencies of any sort unless they are under eating.
          Hm. How do you know when someone has a protein deficiency? Do you wait for signs of kwashiorkor?

          My own perfectly unscientific, proof-free anecdote: I was 20 years 'healthy' vegetarian, with cheese, fake meat (soya/wheat), pulses and the occasional egg. After 6 months to a year of Primal, my hair was 2-3 times as thick - I mean, each individual hair is thicker - and no longer splitting. I'm also stronger - that is, I notice my grip strength is better, but that could be mostly because the joints in my hands are no longer inflamed. It'd be absurd to say I was 'protein deficient' before, but I should imagine the better quality protein is one reason why I'm healthier now.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            You can lead a horse to water.....
            but unless you drown him, he'll continue making post after post pretending to be interested in debating a question, but really just spouting all manner of vegan propaganda.
            The Champagne of Beards

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Ripped View Post
              Anyways folks, thinking about the studies like that, it really makes me want to kick myself in the ass for reading books and over-thinking this diet stuff. Why? Well, it's got to be a lot simpler than we make it out to be. If we can't gather anything meaningful out of countless studies, what does that tell you? Perhaps anecdotal evidence means a lot more than the actual studies.

              So speaking of anecdotal evidence, what can we say about protein? I know that before they had protein supplements, they had strong men. I also know for myself that I was able to get bigger and stronger without worrying too much about protein. I got about as strong as I could. I also know enough to know that lower reps yield a greater limit strength to weight ratio. I also know that if you eat too much food you get fat, and if you get too fat you also get sick. Since fasting didn't seem to cause me to lose strength, it also probably didn't cause me to lose muscle, and if that didn't cause me to lose muscle, neither can a relatively low (not extreme) protein diet won't either. And I also know that if my body is done growing, I can eat all the protein I want, but it isn't going to make me grow any more muscle.

              All I'm saying is keep it simple and look at all the reasons why people believe you need so much protein. The evidence is inconclusive. There isn't any evidence as far as I know that proves you need any more or less protein. (Except for maybe the studies that Brad sites? I'd have to look at it.) Even if Brad was correct, 60 grams of protein (on average) isn't hard to get at all. And especially if you like meat, you'll eat it, and such won't be a problem at all.

              Also, obviously we can eat meat and live off it. And eating too much of anything and everything will surely make you fat. So eat it if you want. I still will. It's all about context.
              How do you come up with all these conclusions without actually looking at any of the studies??? Color me confuses.

              You state....... "There isn't any evidence as far as I know that proves you need any more or less protein. (Except for maybe the studies that Brad sites? I'd have to look at it.) ".....well then go look at it! You obviously shouldn't be done and ready to wrap things up unless you've had a look should you?

              " If we can't gather anything meaningful out of countless studies, what does that tell you?".... tells me you still haven't taken the time to read the countless studies.

              Anecdotally I lose significant amounts of muscle BEFORE my strength struggles at all. This happened when I was eating a vegetarian diet several years back. Strength is a persistent adaptation! Rippetoe says so . And he is correct. Even with loss of some lean mass you can retain most of your strength with neuromuscular adaptations, so supposing that your lifts didn't suffer isn't the same as you maintaining muscle. Just saying.

              So yeah, I still think you are undervaluing proteins role in muscle, metabolism, strength, and health.
              Last edited by Neckhammer; 11-15-2013, 03:14 PM.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                How do you come up with all these conclusions without actually looking at any of the studies???
                Because veganism.
                The Champagne of Beards

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  How do you come up with all these conclusions without actually looking at any of the studies??? Color me confuses.
                  Is it ok with you if we have a peaceful discussion? Do you have anything meaningful you can actually teach me besides the supposed fact that my conclusions don't make any sense? I'm just saying. If mind don't make sense and you actually have something sensible that you can teach me, would you please fill me in?

                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  You obviously shouldn't be done and ready to wrap things up unless you've had a look should you?
                  I'm just discussing. Do you want to do it for me instead and tell me what you think? I'm too lazy. And why do I HAVE to do it? Did Grok do it to get his super human muscular and lean body that nobody in modern times could dream of? Hmm, what's a study anyways? What's protein?

                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  tells me you still haven't taken the time to read the countless studies.
                  Why should I have to? And how many years do I have to spend doing it before I can finally conclude the same thing I'm saying right now, which is eat meat, fruit, and vegetables, and don't worry about the rest? Do you think I can finally figure that out by the time I'm 90?

                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Anecdotally I lose significant amounts of muscle BEFORE my strength struggles at all. This happened when I was eating a vegetarian diet several years back. Strength is a persistent adaptation! Rippetoe says so . And he is correct. Even with loss of some lean mass you can retain most of your strength with neuromuscular adaptations, so supposing that your lifts didn't suffer isn't the same as you maintaining muscle. Just saying.
                  Makes sense. If Rippetoe said so then it must be true. What does Wendler say? Will that still count if I put on a squat suit and bench shirt and eat as much cake and take as much steroids as Wendler?

                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  So yeah, I still think you are undervaluing proteins role in muscle, metabolism, strength, and health.
                  I'm not undervaluing. I was just questioning previously. Protein never seemed to be an issue for me. I have a small frame and was still able to get pretty strong. I worked up to a 320 lb raw bench press, which was HEAVY "for me". My other lifts were pretty good too, for a drug free guy with a small frame. And I did it without protein supplementation. I also don't recall putting too much emphasis on protein during that time, I just ate a lot.

                  If we simplify things and take for granted that fruits, vegetables, and dead animals, are all real food, and if we stick to that only, I'm pretty sure protein will never be an issue, even if it is as important as you seem to believe.

                  Why? Think about it. We surely don't need as much protein as bodybuilders say, they had strong men before protein supplements were invented. And if you ate like Grok and just ate what ever you wanted on that list (without knowing what protein, carbs, fat, insulin, cortisol, etc., was), even if protein was important, there's no way you'd not get enough of it.

                  That's what I have to conclude. Because Grok didn't have to break his mind over all that stuff. He was too busy trying to figure out where he could get his next meal from. Let that be fruit, a wild boar, fish, or what ever was available.

                  Even if protein wasn't important, you could still get energy from the meat because of the fat. If it works then it must be real food, so that better be good enough for me. Life is too short to break your brains over this stuff. I was reading just for fun, but apparently if you read the wrong stuff it can dive you nuts.

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                    Because veganism.
                    I already told you, I'm not a hippie!!! I don't have dreads in my hair, I take a shower, I don't smoke pot, I have a nice short haircut and shave, and I don't go around calling everyone dude!!!

                    Is that what this is all about? Is that what all those books are for? To fit their wacky agenda? 20 years ago my aunt used to tell me you don't need a lot of protein and she used to read about all that stuff. My grandmother had a masters degree in nutrition, and she used to seem to believe mostly in meat, fruit, and vegetables, never made a big deal out of protein.

                    I don't see any reason to believe either way. Do I need less and less protein like what the liberal vegans say? Or do I need more and more and more like the steroid insulin GH thyroid hormone bodybuilders say? Umm, I think I'm just going to do it my grandmother's way.

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                    • #55
                      Growing older you'll probably need more and more protein related to your bodyweight...
                      "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                      - Schopenhauer

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by Ripped View Post
                        Is it ok with you if we have a peaceful discussion? Do you have anything meaningful you can actually teach me besides the supposed fact that my conclusions don't make any sense? I'm just saying. If mind don't make sense and you actually have something sensible that you can teach me, would you please fill me in?

                        I probably was a bit brash, but when you state that you haven't looked at studies posted, then proceed to come to your conclusions it seem really illogical. Thats all. You seem to make some sweeping statements that you believe should be heard and read by all.....I just don't know how someone could justify doing so without taking the time to appreciate the information we have available before making such proclamations. I hinted at what you could do to learn more in my original post. Look up nitrogen balance in relation to protein, athletics, hypertrophy, growth, ect...

                        I'm just discussing. Do you want to do it for me instead and tell me what you think? I'm too lazy. And why do I HAVE to do it? Did Grok do it to get his super human muscular and lean body that nobody in modern times could dream of? Hmm, what's a study anyways? What's protein?

                        Nah, I don't feel like writing a book. I'm not like many posters on here. I actually don't type all that fast either. I'd rather just point you like a gun and let you decide if you wanna pull the trigger and learn something for yourself or not.

                        Why should I have to? And how many years do I have to spend doing it before I can finally conclude the same thing I'm saying right now, which is eat meat, fruit, and vegetables, and don't worry about the rest? Do you think I can finally figure that out by the time I'm 90?

                        You dont have to do anything. But, if your not making sound logical sense backed by at least a modicum of evidence don't get pissy when some dickhead on the internet (me ) calls you out on it. And I didn't read what you said to state "eat meat, fruit, and vegetables, and don't worry about the rest?" ... I believe you erroneously state that there is no good evidence for protein consumption, and I think there is plenty, but either haven't looked or dismiss it because of that new 811 book you just read.

                        Makes sense. If Rippetoe said so then it must be true. What does Wendler say? Will that still count if I put on a squat suit and bench shirt and eat as much cake and take as much steroids as Wendler?

                        Heheh. Glad you liked that.

                        I'm not undervaluing. I was just questioning previously. Protein never seemed to be an issue for me. I have a small frame and was still able to get pretty strong. I worked up to a 320 lb raw bench press, which was HEAVY "for me". My other lifts were pretty good too, for a drug free guy with a small frame. And I did it without protein supplementation. I also don't recall putting too much emphasis on protein during that time, I just ate a lot.

                        If we simplify things and take for granted that fruits, vegetables, and dead animals, are all real food, and if we stick to that only, I'm pretty sure protein will never be an issue, even if it is as important as you seem to believe.

                        Why? Think about it. We surely don't need as much protein as bodybuilders say, they had strong men before protein supplements were invented. And if you ate like Grok and just ate what ever you wanted on that list (without knowing what protein, carbs, fat, insulin, cortisol, etc., was), even if protein was important, there's no way you'd not get enough of it.

                        That's what I have to conclude. Because Grok didn't have to break his mind over all that stuff. He was too busy trying to figure out where he could get his next meal from. Let that be fruit, a wild boar, fish, or what ever was available.

                        Even if protein wasn't important, you could still get energy from the meat because of the fat. If it works then it must be real food, so that better be good enough for me. Life is too short to break your brains over this stuff. I was reading just for fun, but apparently if you read the wrong stuff it can dive you nuts.

                        So you've come full circle. Thats fine too.
                        Over 5000 posts and I still never learned to do that multi quote from one individual person thing.... us that in the advanced screen or something? Anyway, so I just answered above. Me in bold

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                          Over 5000 posts and I still never learned to do that multi quote from one individual person thing.... us that in the advanced screen or something?
                          Manual thing. Copy and paste the quote and edit out the text you don't want. Or, manually type [ quote ] and [/quote ] around your separate blocks of text that you do want. Minus the spaces by the brackets, of course.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by Nivanthe View Post
                            Manual thing. Copy and paste the quote and edit out the text you don't want. Or, manually type [ quote ] and [/quote ] around your separate blocks of text that you do want. Minus the spaces by the brackets, of course.
                            Ahhhhh! Well thank you!

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by Ripped View Post
                              I already told you, I'm not a hippie!!! I don't have dreads in my hair, I take a shower, I don't smoke pot, I have a nice short haircut and shave, and I don't go around calling everyone dude!!!
                              You'll have to prove that with a picture. :-)

                              Sent from my SGH-T989 using Tapatalk

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                              • #60
                                One of many things I never got about fruitarian diets: they recommend VAST amounts of cardio and drinking HUGE amounts of water. This is to help them burn through the sheer amount of carbs and flush out the by-products of fructose metabolism. Yet what frugivore naturally exercises like that and that much? What frugivore drinks that much water after consuming several litres worth out of juicy fruit?

                                Exercise first...
                                A meat-eater needs to be able to sprint, jump, tackle, lift weights, persistence run... If humans were still 'tropical animals', why would we need to perform these activities? Why not be lazy all day with the odd burst of activity, like other tropical herbivores? Why not walk a lot and do very little explosive activity? Why do LOTS of explosive and persistence activity? What evolutionary pressure would have caused a human to require such a huge amount of activity, when we supposedly need no animal produce?

                                There are more issues like this, such as the water one: if humans need so much water to flush out the by-products of fructose metabolism, then why are we so ideally adapted to fruit? Most frugivores get most of their water from juicy fruits, yet most fruitarians require large amounts of water on top of their fruit.
                                Or the sleep one: fruitarians insist that their diet gives them loads of energy and leaves them feeling refreshed, but also say they need to sleep around 12h/day. No shit they feel refreshed.
                                Or the binge one (more DR and FL on this one): carnivores are binge-eaters. They fast for ages and then stuff themselves. Their stomachs are adapted. Herbivores are grazers, slowly accumulating food throughout the day, never having an insanely swollen stomach like a carnivore. Reason is twofold: carnivores fast and binge, needing to consume a week or so worth of kcals in a few meals; most herbivores need to be light and active or focused and quick of mind to avoid predators, having a heavy, bloated stomach would hinder escape. (Yes, there are exceptions to both, but we're looking at mammals and typical binge-patterns. So lions and wolves vs hippos and gorillas.)

                                I've also wondered what they think an ancient human's day would look like.
                                12h sleep.
                                6h eating (3 large meals that, due to our small stomachs, are spaced over 1-2h to consume, plus snacks and fluid breaks; or continual eating and drinking for 6h, or spaced out; you simply need that time to eat that volume of food).
                                2h urinating/defecating (fruit and 2-4l of water does that to you).
                                Leaving 4h for their aimless cardio, gathering the food, warding off predators and entertaining themselves.

                                My idea of a typical human's day:
                                7h sleep.
                                2h eating.
                                30min urinating/defecating.
                                Leaves 14.5h for hunting (once or twice weekly), gathering (daily), moving camps, napping if needed, warding off predators, entertaining themselves and uninterrupted socializing. The hunting, gathering and moving camps accounts for the weightlifting and walking and sprints, so no need for aimless activity.

                                So, that out of the way, my response.
                                1. When the fats are good and consumed intuitively, the amount doesn't matter. I am consuming more fat now than when I was obese. It's the quality and origin of the fat that has changed. So, no such thing as a random point where it becomes 'too much'.
                                2. There is no set amount for how many plants the human body needs apart from "some", "preferably over 10% of kcals" and "when your body asks you to eat them". Look up native plants from the Baltic, Scottish and Siberian regions. My ancestors wouldn't have got that much plant matter today, let alone 1M or 20k years ago. But that doesn't mean I need to eat none, or just a few berries in Autumn. You can pick any random point in human history to set an arbitrary plant to animal ratio that you decide is 'ideal'. The whole picture and individual cases combined are more relevant.
                                3. You can only get enough protein from fruit if you eat hideous amounts of it, to the exclusion of almost all else. Which is not natural (refer to the above).
                                4. Yet calories are also necessary. I'm currently burning through 2500+/day without doing much apart from walking, calisthenics and the odd lifting day. If I only ate vitamin and mineral dense foods, I'd fill my stomach on volumes of nutritious foods and starve for macronutrients.
                                5. Nope, they don't get enough exercise.
                                Last edited by Kochin; 11-15-2013, 06:09 PM.
                                --
                                Perfection is entirely individual. Any philosophy or pursuit that encourages individuality has merit in that it frees people. Any that encourages shackles only has merit in that it shows you how wrong and desperate the human mind can get in its pursuit of truth.

                                --
                                I get blunter and more narcissistic by the day.
                                I'd apologize, but...

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