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How much carbs cause insulin spike

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
    I'm not arguing about meal frequency, Omni. I pointed out there's no support for the claim that eating several small meals of carbohydrates per day actually induces insulin resistance.

    I think fasting and eating one or two meals a day is super, but that wasn't what I was arguing against.
    As far as I'm aware there is no conclusive evidence either way, so all you have to go on is what you current level of understanding is, mine is that I think constant dripfeeding, particularly of easily metabolised carbs may not be such a good idea and as we are having an opposing discussion then I can only assume you think it is a good idea.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
      You want us to provide proof of opposing claims so we prove can ourselves wrong?
      You could find proof in the positive as well, that OJ drip 24/7 for 5 years causes no ill effects.
      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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      • #78
        No such proof exists. If your theoretical carbohydrate grazing scenerio does induce insulin resistance (you seem to think it does), what's the mechanism? That's the most important question. If carbohydrates or insulin had the magical ability to induce disease, surely scientists would have elucidated the mechanism a few decades ago, don't you think?

        As an aside, I'm really happy to be debating about carbohydrates again instead of Ray Peat!

        and as we are having an opposing discussion then I can only assume you think it is a good idea.
        I don't think it's a good idea, but I don't think it would cause diabetes, either.
        Last edited by Timthetaco; 10-14-2013, 08:37 PM.

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        • #79
          What is the mechanism for insulin resistance? It isn't found in people who don't overindulge in carbohydrate so it's fair to say that there is probably a link. Why has insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes gone through the roof? What has changed in the human diet in the last 30 years? Correlation is not causation but a smoking gun will be found soon and it's going to have sugar's fingerprints all over it.
          Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
          www.primaljoy.co.uk

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Omni View Post
            It's as good as any of the replies I've seen.
            We have a vast number of unsubstantiated claims being countered with more unsubstantiated claims, it's all opinion.

            You want proof, go find it, if you don't then don't.
            You're the one that's saying that drinking a bottle of juice over the course of a day is going to give you diabetes. It sounds like the unsabsiated low carb claim that the pancrease just gets "worn out" from carbs and then you have diabetes.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by MaceyUK View Post
              What is the mechanism for insulin resistance? It isn't found in people who don't overindulge in carbohydrate so it's fair to say that there is probably a link. Why has insulin resistance and type 2 diabetes gone through the roof? What has changed in the human diet in the last 30 years? Correlation is not causation but a smoking gun will be found soon and it's going to have sugar's fingerprints all over it.
              HMM... I wonder.

              In terms of calories arising from different major food commodities, large differences may be seen between the developing and industrial countries (table 2). While developing countries between 1963 and 2003 revealed large increases in the available consumption of calories from meat (119%), sugar (127%) and vegetable oils (199%), only vegetable oil consumption was seen to increase appreciably (105%) in industrial countries over these four decades. China, as a prime example of a populous developing country, showed even more dramatic changes in this 40 year period, especially in vegetable oils (680%), meat (349%) and sugar (305%) (table 2). In both developing and industrial countries (and again notably in China), declines were seen for pulses and roots and tubers between 1963 and 2003.

              Diabetes is a recent phenomena in China especially, the country that consumed a carbohydrate rich date for as long as time itself. I suggest you look deeper, you didn't discover the magical secret to health by avoiding an entire macronutrient, sorry to say.

              My posts in another thread:

              It happens at a much deeper level than that. Within the hepatocyte, metabolites of FFA re-esterification, including long-chain acyl-CoAs and diacylglycerol start to accumulate. Excessive FFAs also participate in the relocation of several protein kinase isoforms; such as PKC-b2, and PKC-theta. diacylglycerols is a potent activator of these isoforms and the membrane associated PKCs will phosphorylate the intracellular portion of the insulin receptor which results in impairment of insulin receptor interaction with downstream signaling proteins

              There is no mechanism for the impairment of insulin simply by stimulating its secretion, this is adhering to the idea that cells simply shut down in a surplus.
              the effects of excess FFAs on the insulin receptor mediated signaling pathways in adipose tissue, liver, and skeletal muscle as well as the pro-inflammatory status induced by the toxic effects of excess FFAs in the liver and adipose tissues cause insulin resistance. The FFA induced down regulation of insulin signaling pathways results in activation of several kinases involved in stress response; such as JNK, and suppressors of cytokine signaling-3. JNK activity is also regulated by FFAs and is an important regulator of insulin resistance.

              See: Randle cycle
              Has nothing to do with eating carbs. Want to not get insulin resistance? Stop eating so much PUFA and don't get fat. Simple as that. I eat upwards to 500g of carbs every day and I'd gladly put my blood glucose numbers up against any low carber.
              Make America Great Again

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              • #82
                My blood glucose level is usually 69.
                Crohn's, doing SCD

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  My blood glucose level is usually 69.
                  That's insanely low, congrats.

                  MaceyUK is exactly the type of person who puts on a low carb blinder and ignores the fact most obese people with diabetes get that way by overconsumption of shitty "food stuffs", fast food rich with cheap diesel fuel(oils), and is often much higher in fat than carbs, or at least it's in equal amounts, hence the never ending interference with body signaling. With insulin impairment your satiety signals in the hypothalmus are also impaired hence why these people just can't stop eating; and overeat they do. You will never be able to tie obesity and diabetes with a diet rich in fruit, or white sugar, and low unsaturated fat. You just can't do it. It fails on an empirical level and a scientific level.
                  Make America Great Again

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                  • #84
                    If you're curious my fasting blood glucose is 80-83

                    Just tested when I woke up
                    Make America Great Again

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                    • #85
                      How are your triglycerides Derpa?
                      Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
                      www.primaljoy.co.uk

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by MaceyUK View Post
                        How are your triglycerides Derpa?
                        Very good, thanks. I'll let them know you said hi.

                        My hdl is ~50 and my ldl is around ~140 last I checked
                        Make America Great Again

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                        • #87
                          I believe the cause of insulin resistance is a propensity toward it combined with acellular carbohydrates and too much linoleic acid combined with time. The acelluar carbohydrates by themselves will rot the teeth and cause birth defects. The propensity toward insulin resistance appears to be cumulative through the generations, providing a stronger propensity and requiring less time with each succeeding generation.

                          Once you have insulin resistance, it seems to me the most enjoyable cure is a low carbohydrate diet such as the PB or paleo. Once you fix your insulin resistance, the most enjoyable maintenance appears to be to continue to avoid acellular carbohydrates and linoleic acid, increase resistance training and interval training, keep carbohydrates relatively low (compared to the American norm and compared to people like Derp) but otherwise not worry too much about counting carbs.

                          The trouble with all of you arguers is that some of you do not believe insulin resistance is real. That's simply because you didn't have it. The other trouble is that some of you think that because low carb helps people with insulin resistance, low carb is the cure for everybody, even those who don't have it. That there's some magic that can make weight loss easier for a person who doesn't have insulin resistance.

                          I had signs of insulin resistance myself. I'm relatively old compared to a lot of you. I found enjoyable relief on a low carbohydrate diet. I no longer count carbs. But I have noticed, for instance on my summer backpack trip through Glacier National Park, that a steady drip of huckleberries and thimbleberries sapped all my energy. On the flip side, just eating 3 regular meals with a chance to get good and hungry in between provided stronger energy. So i believe the propensity is still there for me.
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                          • #88
                            Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
                            Very good, thanks. I'll let them know you said hi.

                            My hdl is ~50 and my ldl is around ~140 last I checked
                            Those numbers are pretty meaningless. You and I both know that. LDl and triglycerides are separate measures for good reason as LDl is a poor predictor of heart disease wheras HDL to triglyceride level is a good predictor. Triglyceride levels are certainly raised by over consumption of fructose in whatever form be it from sucrose or fruit.
                            Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
                            www.primaljoy.co.uk

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                            • #89
                              And I do believe that overconsumption of sugar leads to obesity, raises levels of free fatty acids in interstitial; fluids and that this is what causes insulin resistance.
                              Man seeks to change the foods available in nature to suit his tastes, thereby putting an end to the very essence of life contained in them.
                              www.primaljoy.co.uk

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by MaceyUK View Post
                                And I do believe that overconsumption of sugar leads to obesity, raises levels of free fatty acids in interstitial; fluids and that this is what causes insulin resistance.
                                Then how come it only happens to people who eat a lot of fat and junk food. How do YOU explain the people who eat 50-80% of their calories from carbs and do not get these issues?

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