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The metabolic advantage hypothesis

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  • #46
    Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
    Yup. For one, the majority of genetic variability exists across racial lineages. For two, we've been meat eaters since developing huge brains, back in Africa, before we populated the rest of the continents. That's how we grew these huge brains. I'm not saying that some genetic variation hasn't happened over the past few thousand or few tens of thousands of years, but I'm saying a lot of our dietary needs are rooted in changes that took place hundreds of thousands of years ago and more.
    Yet all the information used is from hunter gatherer tribes of only the past few thousand years and up until today. Maybe they evolved to eat their diets because of necessity, not because its rooted in our DNA. I understand that we are omnivores and would never disagree with animal products being a major factor in our evolution. Just that hypothesizing a perfect diet out of information mostly from non paleo cultures doesnt seem exactly logical. Saying we arent suited for high carb or low fat because of what some fringe group of peoples eats doesnt makes sense.

    Also, thanks Neck. Ill check that PDF out when i get to a comp. Also i dont think FCLO is as bad as some other stuff like fish oil. The vitamin content can be therapeutic.

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    • #47
      Originally posted by Zach View Post
      Also i dont think FCLO is as bad as some other stuff like fish oil. The vitamin content can be therapeutic.
      It can be useful for people with severe deficiencies in fat soluble vitamins since it is such a concentrated source of Vitamins A&D. However, what happens once you are replete? When does the law of diminishing returns kick in? And furthermore, if you're that Vitamin A&D deficient, why not just eat liver and get some sun, or take a lanolin-based D supplement without the toxic effects?

      There are much better options. It's just easier to take a pill, and people with the "take a pill" mentality will never truly succeed.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #48
        Originally posted by Zach View Post
        Yet all the information used is from hunter gatherer tribes of only the past few thousand years and up until today. Maybe they evolved to eat their diets because of necessity, not because its rooted in our DNA. I understand that we are omnivores and would never disagree with animal products being a major factor in our evolution. Just that hypothesizing a perfect diet out of information mostly from non paleo cultures doesnt seem exactly logical. Saying we arent suited for high carb or low fat because of what some fringe group of peoples eats doesnt makes sense.

        Also, thanks Neck. Ill check that PDF out when i get to a comp. Also i dont think FCLO is as bad as some other stuff like fish oil. The vitamin content can be therapeutic.
        No problem. As for FCLO I don't make the assertion that "everyone" needs it, which is how far many (including Chris Kressler) take their recommendations. Being a supplement I take the same stance I take on any of those things, it needs to be evaluated on a person by person basis and substantiated with either testing or known deficiencies.

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        • #49
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          That is it. If anything, ketosis slows the metabolism. Hunger suppression is a natural side effect because if you are starving, your body tries to conserve energy, and from a natural standpoint, the only time the body would be in ketosis is when the food supply was bordering on starvation-levels. Forced ketosis is some new, weird, modern thing, which flies in the face of "paleo." Isn't it ironic?

          On the opposite end of the spectrum, diets high in protein and carbohydrate stimulate the metabolism. However, they also tend to stimulate hunger to go along with the rise in metabolism.

          In short, diets high in carbohydrate and low in fat tend to promote a more rapid metabolic rate than diets high in fat and very low in carbohydrate, but you'll probably be hungrier on the former diet than the latter - it is a consequence of the faster metabolism.
          But doesn't being hungry present a dieter with a disadvantage? And doesn't lack of hunger present a dieter with an advantage?

          Hunger is a metabolic process and fighting it with willpower is not a viable strategy for many people. Fighting it with an automatic physiological response seems like a winning strategy to me.

          This has been my experience. A low carb diet gave me the hunger suppression that allowed me to reduce calories. It was a huge relief and almost magical in how relatively easy it was to eat so little.

          Then I began strength training and HIIT and switched over to a higher carb, higher protein, low fat primal diet. I eat manly portions and I get very hungry, but I do not get fat because of the kind of training I do.

          If I had tried to eat this way at the start of my journey, I don't think I could have obtained compliance with the change of foods for one thing, nor could I have lost weight as I was not interested in weight training and a fat girl sprinting is likely to get a lot of unwanted comments from strangers. It all has to be done in context of the individual and where they are in the process.
          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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          • #50
            Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
            It all has to be done in context of the individual and where they are in the process.
            No, it all has to be done in the context of Choco and where he is on HIS journey.
            "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

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            • #51
              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              But doesn't being hungry present a dieter with a disadvantage? And doesn't lack of hunger present a dieter with an advantage?
              Not necessarily. If the hunger is scaled to the metabolic increase, it's a wash. People who eat high carb diets tend to have faster metabolisms than people who eat low carb diets, so you have to eat more to maintain your weight. Keto presents a substantial disadvantage because it is less protectant of lean mass than diets rich in carbohydrate, so if you are dieting, you are more likely to lose lean mass and preserve fat when on keto. Study after study shows the best lean mass retention when on a caloric deficit is on a high protein diet where carbohydrate and fat are balanced. Skew too far in one direction and lean mass suffers. When trying to gain weight, study after study shows a high protein diet with a lower fat/higher carb approach produces the best lean mass gains with the least fat mass gains. I have never seen any study where a high fat diets comes on top for...anything. Not saying it doesn't exist, but the facts are stacked against fat.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Hunger is a metabolic process and fighting it with willpower is not a viable strategy for many people. Fighting it with an automatic physiological response seems like a winning strategy to me.
              Protein is generally the driving factor in hunger. Are you hungry? Eat more protein and less of everything else while maintaining calories.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              This has been my experience. A low carb diet gave me the hunger suppression that allowed me to reduce calories. It was a huge relief and almost magical in how relatively easy it was to eat so little.
              See, I'd argue it was a higher protein diet that did that.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              Then I began strength training and HIIT and switched over to a higher carb, higher protein, low fat primal diet. I eat manly portions and I get very hungry, but I do not get fat because of the kind of training I do.
              It's the lifting that makes you hungry. On my deload weeks there is a noticeable drop in hunger. It's like clockwork.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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              • #52
                Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                No, it all has to be done in the context of Choco and where he is on HIS journey.
                I comment in threads where people are having trouble, not threads where people are doing well. Please find a post where I told someone to quit doing something that was working for them. It just happens to be that on Mark's Daily Apple, the people struggling or going backwards tend to be making the same mistakes.
                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                • #53
                  Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                  I comment in threads where people are having trouble, not threads where people are doing well. Please find a post where I told someone to quit doing something that was working for them. It just happens to be that on Mark's Daily Apple, the people struggling or going backwards tend to be making the same mistakes.
                  Which can all ONLY be addressed by doing things exactly as you do them.
                  "The cling and a clang is the metal in my head when I walk. I hear a sort of, this tinging noise - cling clang. The cling clang. So many things happen while walking. The metal in my head clangs and clings as I walk - freaks my balance out. So the natural thought is just clogged up. Totally clogged up. So we need to unplug these dams, and make the the natural flow... It sort of freaks me out. We need to unplug the dams. You cannot stop the natural flow of thought with a cling and a clang..."

                  Comment


                  • #54
                    Originally posted by Drumroll View Post
                    Which can all ONLY be addressed by doing things exactly as you do them.
                    I contacted Choco for advice a while back and that was not my experience at all.

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                    • #55
                      Originally posted by moluv View Post
                      I contacted Choco for advice a while back and that was not my experience at all.
                      Your mileage may vary.

                      Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      let's get one thing clear: I don't ask questions on MDA. That's not why I come here. I come here to answer questions people have. Whether or not you listen to me is of no consequence to me. You have absolutely nothing to offer me. If you don't want my advice, don't take it.
                      Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

                      Griff's cholesterol primer
                      5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
                      Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
                      TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
                      bloodorchid is always right

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                      • #56
                        Originally posted by magicmerl View Post
                        Your mileage may vary.
                        I'm flattered you find me important enough to have me in your browser bookmarks
                        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                        • #57
                          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                          Protein is generally the driving factor in hunger.
                          Whatever particular macro is the driving factor in hunger, what you are saying is that some kind of macro ratio gives the dieter an advantage by quelling hunger, making it easier to eat less. I say hunger suppression provides an advantage to the dieter, and since hunger is a metabolic process, it provides a metabolic advantage.
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                          • #58
                            Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                            Whatever particular macro is the driving factor in hunger, what you are saying is that some kind of macro ratio gives the dieter an advantage by quelling hunger, making it easier to eat less. I say hunger suppression provides an advantage to the dieter, and since hunger is a metabolic process, it provides a metabolic advantage.
                            And different macro ratios have different burn rates. It doesn't matter if the diet suppresses hunger if the slowing of the metabolism is equal or greater than the hunger suppression. That's usually what happens when carbs are dropped too low.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                            • #59
                              Provide some evidence that the metabolism slows greater than one's hunger on any kind of diet.
                              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                              • #60
                                Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                                Provide some evidence that the metabolism slows greater than one's hunger on any kind of diet.
                                Are you seriously arguing the thermic effect of food?
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                                Comment

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