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  • #31
    Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
    Oh, is that what those were? I've always had these, although my face has always been as smooth as a baby's butt. I still have them, and have avoided GMO's and PUFA's, for the most part, for 2 years.
    Interestingly enough those little bumps are frequently associated with an EFA deficiency or imbalance as well as the A, E and zinc. My sons went away after a couple months of introducing cod liver oil.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Interestingly enough those little bumps are frequently associated with an EFA deficiency or imbalance as well as the A, E and zinc. My sons went away after a couple months of introducing cod liver oil.
      They're often associated with Vitamin A deficiency (retinol). Vitamin E "deficiency" is on a case-by-case basis because the amount of Vitamin E you need is correlated with the amount of PUFA you consume. The higher your SFA:PUFA ratio, the less Vitamin E you need since your body draws Vitamin E out of storage to keep PUFA from polymerizing upon ingestion.

      I strongly doubt any association at all with a "deficiency" in EFA's - mainly because there is no information showing they are necessary at all. Cod liver oil is extremely high in Vitamin A from retinol, so omega 3/6 is likely just a confounding factor there. If you were to give your son retinol from healthier sources like egg yolks or pastured dairy, it would probably be much safer. It's likely the "megadose" of vitamin A that did the trick, but there is definitely a law of diminishing returns.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #33
        As to eating Primal and reaching an optimal composition, yes it is a slow road, but health recovery and just FEELING better is astonishingly fast when following the PB or paleo. I do wonder at times if all the "tweaking" is done without that truism taken into account. Hey I've been at this for 3+ years with nary a tweak in my diet compared to many round here jumping on and off sugar, more nuts, less nuts, dairy, no dairy, potato hack...ect. That stuffs all fun, but maybe its just more out of boredom than necessity. For me I've continued to gain lean mass slowly with my 1-2x/week heavy lift and just eating an absolute ton of meat, eggs, fish, nuts and seeds, fruit, and tubers....probably proportionately in about that order. All within the confines of the PB and even Robb's Paleo Solution written several years ago. Thats my N = 1, but also my experience with the people I've seen implement this lifestyle in the real world.

        As to the idea that people afflicted by disease of civilization require a protocol vastly different than that of, what is for all intensive purposes, the human diet is dubious at best. Sure we could adopt an allopathic symptomatic mindset and ameliorate certain issues through diet, but that's not going to hit the reset button that brings you back to health and homeostasis IMO. There are definitely cases where an individual approach due to illness and disease are required, but I don't believe any lifestyle modification that veers far from general Paleo/Primal/Ancestral principles should be attempted lightly or without close monitoring. So if you go that rout I would recommend extensive labs to assess your current physiological and biochemical state and follow up with those every 90 days or so at least in the short term to determine what sort of effects you are producing. You can't rely on your "feelings" of well being when your not eating whole natural foods....we know that our innate mechanisms can be tricked and usurped in instances of processed substances. So you need the hard data.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
          They're often associated with Vitamin A deficiency (retinol). Vitamin E "deficiency" is on a case-by-case basis because the amount of Vitamin E you need is correlated with the amount of PUFA you consume. The higher your SFA:PUFA ratio, the less Vitamin E you need since your body draws Vitamin E out of storage to keep PUFA from polymerizing upon ingestion.

          I strongly doubt any association at all with a "deficiency" in EFA's - mainly because there is no information showing they are necessary at all. Cod liver oil is extremely high in Vitamin A from retinol, so omega 3/6 is likely just a confounding factor there. If you were to give your son retinol from healthier sources like egg yolks or pastured dairy, it would probably be much safer. It's likely the "megadose" of vitamin A that did the trick, but there is definitely a law of diminishing returns.
          No, plenty of skin conditions are associated with deficiency or imbalances in EFA's. I did mention there are other factors as well, but the sum is greater than the whole in the human body. You may doubt it. You are welcome to your opinion, but there are lab values and ways of measuring these things (re: essential fatty acids). Like most things there are ranges and ratios that tends to be optimal. Too much, too little, or improper balance is associated with disease and dysfunction.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            No, plenty of skin conditions are associated with deficiency or imbalances in EFA's.
            No. I am making a prediction - you will not provide one single study - anywhere - that shows a skin disease caused by a deficiency in polyunsaturated fat. Any study that attempts to draw that conclusion has confounding factors galore. That is my stance - I challenge you to prove ONE.

            There is no such thing as an "essential fatty acid." Your body does not need omega 3 and omega 6. There is no study ANYWHERE that has shown "essential fatty acids" to be actually essential. Do you understand this? This is marketing speak from 40 years ago and holds no basis in reality. The body explicitly does not manufacture polyunsaturated fat because it is inherently toxic to the body in significant quantities. Your body does not want PUFA in it.

            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
            I did mention there are other factors as well, but the sum is greater than the whole in the human body. You may doubt it. You are welcome to your opinion, but there are lab values and ways of measuring these things (re: essential fatty acids). Like most things there are ranges and ratios that tends to be optimal. Too much, too little, or improper balance is associated with disease and dysfunction.
            Cod liver oil is poisonous and you're giving it to your child. I would continue your research.

            When the seed and fish oil industry was going under decades ago because the drying oils they were selling to the paint industry got replaced with cheap petroleum-based products, the seed oil industry came out of the hole pretty quickly with the war on saturated fats and cholesterol. Margarine was born! It was a much more difficult hill for fish oil manufacturers to climb because fish oil contains a lot of cholesterol, but it has finally made it into the "health food" market over the past decade. I find it funny that you wholeheartedly acknowledge that soybean oil is really bad for you, but you can't seem to understand that fish oil is bad for you for the exact same reason. I don't know who fabricated this "omega 3 : omega 6 ratio" myth, but it's a pretty incredible lie given there is nothing backing it up other than hearsay. You are giving your child WD40 pills. SMH.
            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 10-01-2013, 09:20 PM.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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            • #36
              There will always be a 'fad' side to diets where there is something newer and better. I think this is just that.
              http://lifemutt.blogspot.sg/ - Gaming, Food Reviews and Life in Singapore

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              • #37
                Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                No. I am making a prediction - you will not provide one single study - anywhere - that shows a skin disease caused by a deficiency in polyunsaturated fat. Any study that attempts to draw that conclusion has confounding factors galore. That is my stance - I challenge you to prove ONE.

                There is no such thing as an "essential fatty acid." Your body does not need omega 3 and omega 6. There is no study ANYWHERE that has shown "essential fatty acids" to be actually essential. Do you understand this? This is marketing speak from 40 years ago and holds no basis in reality. The body explicitly does not manufacture polyunsaturated fat because it is inherently toxic to the body in significant quantities. Your body does not want PUFA in it.


                Cod liver oil is poisonous and you're giving it to your child. I would continue your research.

                When the seed and fish oil industry was going under decades ago because the drying oils they were selling to the paint industry got replaced with cheap petroleum-based products, the seed oil industry came out of the hole pretty quickly with the war on saturated fats and cholesterol. Margarine was born! It was a much more difficult hill for fish oil manufacturers to climb because fish oil contains a lot of cholesterol, but it has finally made it into the "health food" market over the past decade. I find it funny that you wholeheartedly acknowledge that soybean oil is really bad for you, but you can't seem to understand that fish oil is bad for you for the exact same reason. I don't know who fabricated this "omega 3 : omega 6 ratio" myth, but it's a pretty incredible lie given there is nothing backing it up other than hearsay. You are giving your child WD40 pills. SMH.

                I understand you are now heavily influenced by Peat. Its fine, but you need to comprehend that there are millions of scientists that disagree with his assertions. Literally. Get out of your bubble. There is more than one guy working on this stuff.

                CLO is poisonous? lol.... sure. As is salmon cause its too high in pufa, and don't forget the much maligned nuts and seeds (hey still waiting for that study from you on any of these high PUFA items causing ill health!)

                I can provide several studies that show they vastly improve health, but you already have your mind made up. There is no use showing you evidence when your mind is already made up. I've presented evidence a number of times. It gets brushed off since it doesn't fit your current model. That is dogmatic.

                Here is how I look at things. First evolutionarily. Is there a precedent for the recommendation. So this can be met by our archeological knowledge or present/recent HG tribal practices. I don't count "traditional" diets, because in most senses these are still agricultural societies that have made the best of using grains and legumes with methods to simply reduce their toxicity. So in the case of PUFA, what do you think the answer is? Are there HG tribes thriving with high quantities of it? Well silly questions right! Of course any society near water gets sufficient amounts and has been known to ferment their fish (FCLO....like the kind I use ). But lets go for the much maligned nut PUFA's. How bout those? One tribe gets more than half their total calories from the monongo nut. A quote from Jared Diamond, "The Worst Mistake in the History of the Human Race," Discover Magazine, May 1987, pp. 64-6 "One Bushman, when asked why he hadn't emulated neighboring tribes by adopting agriculture, replied, "Why should we, when there are so many mongongo nuts in the world?"

                Per 100 grams shelled nuts:

                57 g fat:
                44% polyunsaturated
                17% saturated
                18% monounsaturated
                24 g protein
                193 mg calcium
                527 mg magnesium
                4 mg zinc
                2.8 mg copper
                565 mg vitamin E (and tocopherol)

                Wow.... they get more than HALF of their total calories from this one nut. With 44% PUFA they must be dieing in terrible health at an astronomical rate! Well no. Not at all. Healthy, strong, and no diseases of civilization.

                So then you have the biochemistry and physiology. I'm not trying to write a dissertation here. It would take far too long to go through all the nuances and you are steeped in Peat so most of it you will just refuse to acknowledge.

                Lucas Tafur did a nice article that was quite well researched and cited. It's also not an opinion piece. Its simple statements of what science seems to imply about fatty acids and inflammation/immunotherapy. Here it is if anyone would like to check it out: Lucas Tafur: Nutritional immunotherapy: dietary fatty acids

                Very interesting observation here:

                "The acute effect of increasing doses of animal O3 is a reduction in arachidonic acid-derived inflammatory metabolites, increases in membrane permeability and anti-inflammatory molecules derived from EPA/DHA, as well as reduction in T-cell activation and antigenic stimulation. O3 also have direct effects: inhibition of LPS or lipopeptide-stimulated COX2 expression and LPS-induced NFkB activation (24, 25). Interestingly, there is evidence that the anti-inflammatory effects seen for O3 are dependent on their oxidation. Oxidized EPA, but not unoxidized EPA, inhibits NFkB activation and expression of inflammatory molecules in a PPARa dependent manner, as well as chemotaxis (26, 27, 28). Oxidized, but not unoxidized DHA, inhibits polychlorinated biphenyl-induced NFkB activation and MCP-1 expression, effects probably mediated by its oxidation products (A4/J4 neuroprostanes) (29). Thus, it seems that contrary to what is believed, oxidation of O3 PUFA is necessary to mediate their beneficial biological effects. "

                So within that article there are studies demonstrating positive effect.... or at the least clinically relevant effects on at least a portion of the population in need of them.

                I tend to also read a lot of case studies. You probably either have no interest, no time, or no use for them. They are essentially the well documented N=1 of the clinical world. There are tons of these that associate a clinical intervention of increased EFA of a specific type (the one out of ratio or deficient in) having positive health effect on an individual patient. I find these to be quite powerful at times as you can pick up patterns in an individuals status rather than a population of statistics. It gives all important experience. Experience is just someones ability to recognize certain patterns in individual cases and apply the means necessary on that basis. Without that experience you rely on RCT's or standardized algorithms and results are likely to be only mediocre.

                Your welcome to be "anti-PUFA.... no such thing as an EFA..... Peat guy". It's my opinion that your stance is not well supported by the majority of the scientific evidence available at this time. I nor you can make any assertion stronger than that.
                Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-02-2013, 07:26 AM.

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                  Cod liver oil is poisonous and you're giving it to your child. I would continue your research.
                  And my mother gave it to me throughout most of my childhood; 1 spoonful per day! Poisonous? Even water can poison us if overdoing it...
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • #39
                    After reading these fora for years, I have decided to eat salmon and nuts like I am Primal; liver like I am a zero-carber; fruit like I am a Peatarian; resistant starches aka beans like I am a Ferrissian, and fermented dairy just because.
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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                    • #40
                      Literally millions of scientists? lol.

                      Neck, hasnt Cod liver oil only been used for several hundred years? Also which awesome tribe is eating mongogo nuts all day and in peak health?

                      Funny seeing Jerad Diamonds name being dropped all over the place in the last week. Is he the new low carb, Peat?

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Leida View Post
                        After reading these fora for years, I have decided to eat salmon and nuts like I am Primal; liver like I am a zero-carber; fruit like I am a Peatarian; resistant starches aka beans like I am a Ferrissian, and fermented dairy just because.
                        That may be an absolutely brilliant approach .

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                        • #42
                          Certain Northern California tribes not only consumed salmon as a major portion of their diets but also candlefish oil which was also traded with inland people and highly sought after. Some So Cal native people got the majority of their calories from shellfish and acorns and were some of the most healthy native people ever seen as well as highly advanced in culture and standard of living. Until the Catholics enslaved them.
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Zach View Post
                            Literally millions of scientists? lol.

                            Neck, hasnt Cod liver oil only been used for several hundred years? Also which awesome tribe is eating mongogo nuts all day and in peak health?

                            Funny seeing Jerad Diamonds name being dropped all over the place in the last week. Is he the new low carb, Peat?
                            Lol.... no I just couldn't find the original article with the breakdown of portions in said tribe. OK... just for you I broke out my 16th degree google fu black belt to find the original paper that I made those assertions from. I'm serious, this took some work, which is why I just grabbed the first thing I found (which was Jerad Diamonds) in the first place:

                            http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/dcr...lee_chap_4.pdf

                            Table 4-4 shows that out of 2355 calories they consume 1365 from the monongo nuts.

                            As to the CLO.... I do get FCLO, and have very specific reasons for giving it to my son which are based on our testings and deficiencies in his diet. He is an individual and we supplement only on an individual basis. My other son does not need or take it.

                            Sorry couldn't find a citation as to who first originated or how long FCLO has been known to be used. Here is an article that has some sound bites from Chris Kressler and Chris Masterjohn on it though: http://balancedbites.com/2013/02/faq...-fish-oil.html

                            I made the assumption that "fermented fish" was enough to assume that a substance LIKE FCLO has been around for quite a time longer than just the past few hundred years. I might be wrong. Not positive on this one, but I do know that the Inuit ferment their fish....which is likely to give us at least a couple thousand years of use right? I would have to do more digging for anything more specific in that regard.
                            Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-02-2013, 08:08 AM.

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                              Certain Northern California tribes not only consumed salmon as a major portion of their diets but also candlefish oil which was also traded with inland people and highly sought after. Some So Cal native people got the majority of their calories from shellfish and acorns and were some of the most healthy native people ever seen as well as highly advanced in culture and standard of living. Until the Catholics enslaved them.
                              You know what i find strange about using certain tribes and cultures as proof that the paleo diet is correct? The fact that the vast majority of paleo gurus and followers are of white european decent. Do you really think Indian, Inuit and other indigenous tribes really relates to the populous of today ?

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by Zach View Post
                                You know what i find strange about using certain tribes and cultures as proof that the paleo diet is correct? The fact that the vast majority of paleo gurus and followers are of white european decent. Do you really think Indian, Inuit and other indigenous tribes really relates to the populous of today ?
                                Yup. For one, the majority of genetic variability exists across racial lineages. For two, we've been meat eaters since developing huge brains, back in Africa, before we populated the rest of the continents. That's how we grew these huge brains. I'm not saying that some genetic variation hasn't happened over the past few thousand or few tens of thousands of years, but I'm saying a lot of our dietary needs are rooted in changes that took place hundreds of thousands of years ago and more.
                                The Champagne of Beards

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