Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

The metabolic advantage hypothesis

Collapse
X
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Originally posted by Prime-Animal View Post
    Another thing worth mentioning: as a bodybuilder whose staple was brown rice, I found it incredibly useful in being a LOW GLYCEMIC source of carbs, which kept my blood sugar level stable (assuming I had an influx of carbs every few hours). Does GLYCEMIC INDEX factor at all in blood sugar levels, or is the manta " A carb, is a carb, is a carb" indeed a worthy philosophy to bear, or is GLYCEMIC LOAD of more value? Is it all minutia? Being that the paleo diet has no relatively low glycemic carbs (aside from certain fruits) Is a high carb diet with a lot of HIGH GLYCEMIC carbs a diet that chronically elevates insulin? One more final question, in theory, a high glycemic carb should be more thermogenic because it spikes insulin faster, and thus is stored faster correct?
    A sweet potato is fairly low GI.

    A white potato is extremely high GI.

    The GLYCEMIC LOAD is what really matters here, and they are the same for a white and sweet potato. If anything, I feel better on white potatoes to be honest.

    White rice is superior to brown rice, has a much higher GI and the same GL. If you got tired eating higher GI carbs, it's probably because you were just eating a lot more calories and it was more than your body can comfortably handle in a sitting.
    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

    Comment


    • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
      I don't know how to answer this. HGH levels are highest at night when in a catabolic state. I don't think you'll find a personal trainer alive that thinks fat is superior to carbohydrate for muscle fuel and growth. The ULTIMATE anabolic hormone is insulin, and since higher carbohydrate diets generate more insulin than lower carbohydrate diets in general, it's fairly safe to say high carb is more conducive to growth. Look at DAIRY - it raises insulin higher than any other food group, even though dairy is a low-carb food. It is also packed with IGF-1, which has growth implications. Meat, dairy and sugar all generate lots of insulin, and their reputation for muscle growth is well-known for a reason.


      I don't think high fat days are ever conducive to training. I don't see a reason why fat should ever be higher than 40% of dietary calories unless you're trying to treat some specific, rare medical condition.



      Health? Not necessarily.

      Aesthetics? Probably. Satiation calories are often significantly higher than "abs lean." If you eat to satiation, you'll probably be in the 12-16% bf range forever. There's a reason why everyone counts calories to cut. Natural hunger, even on a perfect diet, is almost never single digit body fat...because single digit body fat isn't very healthy!


      I don't think aesthetics and MMA mix. If you want to be very active, single digit body fat probably won't support that. Bodybuilders are exhausted after posing. It takes it all out of them.

      Be very, very careful with artificial fasting windows. Be very careful adhering to weird, unnatural schedules that revolve around food. The mental anxiety tends to build rapidly.


      HELL NO!

      Fat+carbs yields the most delicious food, fastest recovery and greatest strength gains. If you're trying to get shredded for a competition, I'd agree, but if the goal is strength gains, recovery, great food, sexual health and overall happiness, I don't think you'll be able to maintain religious macro partitioning for long periods of time. I've done the dance, and it made me develop strange relationships with food. It creates anxiety. I embraced my natural build awhile ago, and while I'd like to be leaner, sure, I am a much happier, less stressed person at 13% body fat. I can do whatever I want when I want. And I get ice cream and chocolate.
      First off thank you for explaining that PUFAs and insulin is what is actually toxic, not the insulin itself.

      Secondly I find that dairy for me only works once a day/ more over towards night time eating, as I bloat with excessive dairy, but do wake up fine! Most of the bloat can be due to the insulin spiking nature I suppose!

      I was referring to high fat on rest days, as no glycogen is being depleted, so there isn't a real need to refill glycogen? (or is there?!?)

      I haven't done any testing but I would say I generally hover in that 10-12% BF range, as I'm pretty lean year round, and extremely diet sensitive, meaning I eat clean, I look shredded.

      I was in a pretty anxious state I while ago, but I've let go a little bit in the sense that I'm not as stressed when I miss a training day or eat a little out of whack, right now I'm making a transition into the best diet for HEALTH and PERFORMANCE reasons, and not necessarily aesthetics, even though I believe that will come.

      I wouldn't be training aesthetically, it would probably be 3-4 times a week of compound lifts/ or a 5x5 program (which I've never done but seems interesting). I really miss being a great athlete (even though I'm still pretty athletic) but I'd like to train much more functionally!

      Could you elaborate more on the fat + carbs notion? Would this mean balancing all meals to have a little fat/ majority protein and some carbs (based on activity level)?

      I do believe that I did suffer some hormonal damage from lifting 4-5 times a week, plus practice 5 time a week with no energy source at all, which is why I'm all about health rather that aesthetics (not to sound vane but I look good anyways, why look like a statue and sacrifice health and performance?

      You're ice cream and chocolate ending to that notion does make embracing a natural build pretty enticing haha.

      One final thing: You had an interesting point regarding adipose turnover rate being a slow process, taking years. I gather you're pretty active, but I think that the recalibration of overall fat stores and reseting of the our adipose turnover rate is much more achievable, albeit an unnecessary process from a survival perspective, still a doable process nonetheless. (I.E: Reverse dieting post competition leading to ridiculous leaness on an almost year round basis.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by otzi View Post
        I've actually never had a Choco Taco.

        Artificially flavored vanilla light ice cream* with a chocolate flavored swirl in a sugar taco with milk chocolate flavored coating and peanuts. Artificial flavor added

        Light ice cream {nonfat milk, sugar, chocolate flavored sauce [corn syrup, water, high fructose corn syrup, cocoa (processed with alkali), modified corn starch, salt, sodium benzoate and potassium sorbate (used to protect quality), artificial flavor], corn syrup, milk fat, whey, maltodextrin, contains less than 1 percent of each of the following: propylene glycol monoesters, cellulose gel, mono and diglycerides, cellulose gum, locust bean gum, guar gum, polysorbate 80, carrageenan, natural and artificial flavor, caramel color, vitamin A palmitate}.

        Taco {taco shell [bleached wheat flour, sugar, molasses, salt, vegetable shortening (partially hydrogenated soybean and/or cottonseed oil), mono and diglycerides, soy lecithin, caramel color, artificial flavor], coating [fractionated palm kernel oil, sugar, cocoa, soy lecithin, vanillin (artificial flavor)]}, Milk chocolate flavored coating (coconut oil, sugar, chocolate liquor, milk, whey, soy lecithin, salt, vanillin (artificial flavor), dry roasted peanuts.

        Contains milk, wheat, soy, and peanuts.
        And HOLY SHIT I probably never will!

        KlondikeBar.com: Ice Cream Bars, Ice Cream Sandwiches, Choco TacoŽ and more delicious frozen treats

        *The light ice cream in this product has 65% less fat and 35% fewer calories than a range of full-fat ice creams. See nutrition information for fat and saturated fat content. Not a light food.
        OH THANK GOD!!

        BARF.
        Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

        Comment


        • Jeff Volek pointed to some new research thats coming down the pipeline regarding VLC and exercise recovery. Essentially its in association with VLC being a highly antioxidative state. So much so that the membranes of cells are more fluid due to containing more PUFA. They contain these not because of an increase in ingestion or the body making them, but because they are not oxidized. When even O6 is not oxidized it does not enter those inflammatory pathways, so you also have lower inflammation. They are going to be studying this in the near future for both exercise recovery and health. He was showing some unpublished data in that slide show that OldSchool posted.

          For me this seems to have a variety of implications.... but I'll let your imaginations run wild.


          But for my post workout meal I'm having a steak salad.... chuck steak (fatty), spinach and romaine lettuces, onion, mushroom, a whole avocado, bunch of walnuts, some aged cheddar, and a ton of olive oil with balsamic. Oh yeah baby.... feed the muscle bro!
          Last edited by Neckhammer; 10-22-2013, 12:23 PM.

          Comment


          • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            A sweet potato is fairly low GI.

            A white potato is extremely high GI.

            The GLYCEMIC LOAD is what really matters here, and they are the same for a white and sweet potato. If anything, I feel better on white potatoes to be honest.

            White rice is superior to brown rice, has a much higher GI and the same GL. If you got tired eating higher GI carbs, it's probably because you were just eating a lot more calories and it was more than your body can comfortably handle in a sitting.
            I've read baking a sweet potatoe raises the GI to a 94 if I'm not mistaken, but as you stated because of it's load that shouldn't be a factor. Very possible with the the fatigue factor. I suppose I should spread out my carbs, not condense them to massive, blood sugar level jacking feeds.

            This is slightly unrelated, but as active individuals who train, would the potassium levels in potatoes negatively effect performance (getting the sodium levels out of whack) is that once again a minute detail?

            And otzi, I hope thats paleo aprooved or I'm going to have to go attack my maple coffee bailey's ice cream!!

            Comment


            • Originally posted by Prime-Animal View Post
              First off thank you for explaining that PUFAs and insulin is what is actually toxic, not the insulin itself.
              PUFA is toxic with or without insulin.

              Originally posted by Prime-Animal View Post
              Secondly I find that dairy for me only works once a day/ more over towards night time eating, as I bloat with excessive dairy, but do wake up fine! Most of the bloat can be due to the insulin spiking nature I suppose!
              It absolutely has nothing to do with insulin. Why would insulin bloat you? Lactose is a sugar that is fermented in your gut by bacteria. If diary bloats you, it's probably because you have insufficient gut cultures. I would suggest quality fermented dairy, probiotic supplements, a diet rich in soluble fiber (sweet potatoes, white potatoes, bananas, plantains, fermented beans, kimchi, saurkraut, etc) and fresh, ripe fruits. Try eating dairy alongside a probiotic pill, fresh, ripe fruits and well-cooked potatoes.

              I was referring to high fat on rest days, as no glycogen is being depleted, so there isn't a real need to refill glycogen? (or is there?!?)[/quote]
              But why high fat? All that's going to do is add to fat storage. Why not moderate fat, high protein, low carb?

              I haven't done any testing but I would say I generally hover in that 10-12% BF range, as I'm pretty lean year round, and extremely diet sensitive, meaning I eat clean, I look shredded.[/quote]
              Pic? People generally underestimate their bf%. Usually 10-12% is actually 13-15%.

              I was in a pretty anxious state I while ago, but I've let go a little bit in the sense that I'm not as stressed when I miss a training day or eat a little out of whack, right now I'm making a transition into the best diet for HEALTH and PERFORMANCE reasons, and not necessarily aesthetics, even though I believe that will come.

              I wouldn't be training aesthetically, it would probably be 3-4 times a week of compound lifts/ or a 5x5 program (which I've never done but seems interesting). I really miss being a great athlete (even though I'm still pretty athletic) but I'd like to train much more functionally![/quote]
              Watch your calorie intake, lift heavy and eat real food. That's what I subscribe to myself. You start getting to complicated and those weird little habits can turn into a full-blown disorder. I'm pretty damn grounded and even I developed anxiety, so be careful.

              Originally posted by Prime-Animal View Post
              Could you elaborate more on the fat + carbs notion? Would this mean balancing all meals to have a little fat/ majority protein and some carbs (based on activity level)?
              I mean it's easier for you to consume more calories mixing fat and carbs than singling them out. It's a lot easier to eat 2,500 kcal of steak and potatoes in one sitting than simply 2,500 kcal of steak or 2,500 kcal of potatoes individually. Highly palatable, calorie-dense foods taste better and are easier to overeat. That'll hurt you on a cut, but it's great for gaining weight, recovering from heavy workouts and overall enjoyment. I live somewhere in the middle.

              I do believe that I did suffer some hormonal damage from lifting 4-5 times a week, plus practice 5 time a week with no energy source at all, which is why I'm all about health rather that aesthetics (not to sound vane but I look good anyways, why look like a statue and sacrifice health and performance?[/quote]
              Your OP sounded like you weren't eating and sleeping nearly enough to recover.

              Originally posted by Prime-Animal View Post
              You're ice cream and chocolate ending to that notion does make embracing a natural build pretty enticing haha.

              One final thing: You had an interesting point regarding adipose turnover rate being a slow process, taking years. I gather you're pretty active, but I think that the recalibration of overall fat stores and reseting of the our adipose turnover rate is much more achievable, albeit an unnecessary process from a survival perspective, still a doable process nonetheless. (I.E: Reverse dieting post competition leading to ridiculous leaness on an almost year round basis.
              Eat a diet that maintains a fast metabolic rate.

              Keep protein adequate and high quality (meats, dairy, eggs), a high SFA:PUFA ratio, lots of quality carbs from fresh, ripe fruits and potatoes, consume lots of salt, get lots of sleep, get enough sunshine, eat quality grassfed dairy, consume ample gelatin, eat a diet rich in fat soluble vitamins and lift like an animal...all these things will help maximize the rate of adipose tissue turnover and build a metabolism that tends to promote lean muscle over fat storage, but you will ALWAYS store fat. We are a product of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that favored people that could store fat efficiently over people that couldn't. Famine killed off the lean while those with fat stores survived. We are all bred to store fat efficiently. Remember your quest for leanness is a fight against nature.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

              Comment


              • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post

                Eat a diet that maintains a fast metabolic rate.

                Keep protein adequate and high quality (meats, dairy, eggs), a high SFA:PUFA ratio, lots of quality carbs from fresh, ripe fruits and potatoes, consume lots of salt, get lots of sleep, get enough sunshine, eat quality grassfed dairy, consume ample gelatin, eat a diet rich in fat soluble vitamins and lift like an animal...all these things will help maximize the rate of adipose tissue turnover and build a metabolism that tends to promote lean muscle over fat storage, but you will ALWAYS store fat. We are a product of hundreds of thousands of years of evolution that favored people that could store fat efficiently over people that couldn't. Famine killed off the lean while those with fat stores survived. We are all bred to store fat efficiently. Remember your quest for leanness is a fight against nature.
                Great summation. Will keep in mind and utilize everything here. I learned this summer that you can't fight nature, but you can work with her. Again, I maintain the possibility of being very lean (even though it isn't by any means a current goal of mine to be sub 8-10%) but takes time unless your goal is to maintain that ( a lot of work).


                Thanks again for the replies, very helpful as I was EXTREMELY dazed and confused for a while, albeit coming closer and closer to a solution, but never completely there. Will definitely implement and experiment much of the information you were kind enough to pass along! Cheers! Look forward to more of your insightful posts.

                Comment


                • You know, I do not worry about any of it. I eat meat and potatoes every day, whether I work out or not. Sometimes maybe I eat something else, but it's pretty much every day meat and potatoes, potatoes and meat. Sometimes I have some fruit. Sometimes I have some cheese. If I'm stimulating my body to grow via strength training and if I'm sprinting, it doesn't matter the macros I eat. What does matter is if I overeat. I will get fat if I do that, even if I overeat boneless, skinless chicken breast.
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    Blah blah blah PUFA's cause obesity.
                    So how exactly does the body choose to "not process" polyuns in the blood? I call bullrush.

                    Low carb causes insulin resistance? What?
                    The more dead bodies a soldier steps over, the more he is resistant to the effects of seeing dead humans. The more paralysis ticks a dog gets the more they are resistant to ticks. The more antibiotics a microbe deals with the more resistant to antibiotics they are. The more weights a person lifts the more they can resist those weights. The more insulin u have in your blood (over time) the more resistant to insulin you become.

                    Your (low carb=IR) theory would be the first time in earth history that something became resistant to something by reducing its exposure to that something.

                    Also you still haven't read about T2 diabetes and IR. No scientist can pinpoint the cause of these 2 maladies.
                    All they can do is measure that progressively (from IR to T2DM) the bodies insulin response is delayed and slowed all tho the correct amount of insulin is eventually released. If that is T2DM & IR, then IMO there can only be a few causes of those diseases...

                    Reduced capacity to detect glucose in the blood. (I believe this is the reason)

                    Or

                    If BG is adequately detected then it is the reduced capacity of pancreas cells to produce insulin.

                    So in conclusion if you want to formulate a theory for T2DM and IR you have to explain how it delays and slows down the release of insulin because that is the scientifically observed effect. I haven't seen an adequate explanation from you how PUFA directly causes insulin to be delayed and slowed.


                    Sent from my iPhone
                    A little primal gem - My Success Story
                    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                      even if I overeat boneless, skinless chicken breast.
                      How is that even possible ? I would gag after 5 or 6 normal bites ...

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        The ULTIMATE anabolic hormone is insulin, and since higher carbohydrate diets generate more insulin than lower carbohydrate diets in general, it's fairly safe to say high carb is more conducive to growth.
                        I'm with Prime-Animal, there is so much contradictory info out there that it's hard to figure out what is what. I just finished reading this post and the above statement stuck with me. Then i hope on youtube and hit the next video on my feed and it's Nora Gedgaudes who goes on to say the following:

                        "The main driver of muscle protein synthesis is not insulin, but the availability of essential amino acids, in particular Leucine. ....if you consume sufficient protein after a workout, adding extra insulin provoking carbs is not going to improve your anabolic response."

                        - Ancestral Health Symposium 2012
                        I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for everybody, and I don't believe there is one correct way of eating for a person through every stage of their life

                        Comment


                        • Talking about metabolic advantage, I wish I had access to the full text of this paper:
                          "A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of t... [Nutr J. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI

                          Abstract:
                          The principle of "a calorie is a calorie," that weight change in hypocaloric diets is independent of macronutrient composition, is widely held in the popular and technical literature, and is frequently justified by appeal to the laws of thermodynamics. We review here some aspects of thermodynamics that bear on weight loss and the effect of macronutrient composition. The focus is the so-called metabolic advantage in low-carbohydrate diets--greater weight loss compared to isocaloric diets of different composition. Two laws of thermodynamics are relevant to the systems considered in nutrition and, whereas the first law is a conservation (of energy) law, the second is a dissipation law: something (negative entropy) is lost and therefore balance is not to be expected in diet interventions. Here, we propose that a misunderstanding of the second law accounts for the controversy about the role of macronutrient effect on weight loss and we review some aspects of elementary thermodynamics. We use data in the literature to show that thermogenesis is sufficient to predict metabolic advantage. Whereas homeostasis ensures balance under many conditions, as a general principle, "a calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics.
                          I don't expect any clear conclusion but it would be nice to read the discussion. I would also refresh my almost completely forgotten lectures on thermodynamics, 2nd law and all that ... pfff, almost 20 years ago, time flies ...

                          Comment


                          • Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
                            I'm with Prime-Animal, there is so much contradictory info out there that it's hard to figure out what is what. I just finished reading this post and the above statement stuck with me. Then i hope on youtube and hit the next video on my feed and it's Nora Gedgaudes who goes on to say the following:

                            "The main driver of muscle protein synthesis is not insulin, but the availability of essential amino acids, in particular Leucine. ....if you consume sufficient protein after a workout, adding extra insulin provoking carbs is not going to improve your anabolic response."

                            - Ancestral Health Symposium 2012
                            Choco is right. The body is only ever in one of 2 states, these are catabolic and anabolic, the only determining factor that decides which state your in is blood glucose levels. If your blood glucose is high your body stores everything out the blood indiscriminately, glucose, fatty acids, and amino's, this is anabolic and is driven by insulin. If BG is low, then the body releases energy from all available stores indiscriminately and breaks down larger unusable molecules circulating in the blood, this is catabolism, this is driven by glucagon.

                            No onto muscle building. The ONLY way the body can build muscle is by using insulin. It can't build muscle in a catabolic state. It also needs amino's present in the blood for insulin to anabolise. If eating just protien the body will swing between both states cyclically. You will be catabolic until glucagon breaks down enough amino's into glucose to provide high blood glucose, when this happens glucagon is scaled back and insulin secretion is increased this forces the amino's into muscle and the glucose into stores. After a short while insulin has reduced BG and your body is back to being catabolic whereby BG is raised again and you cycle back into being anabolic and so on. So in essence eating pure protien is only 50% effective at muscle genesis and 50% effective at energy production.

                            Now if you eat carbs with your protien, while ever BG is high, the amino's will be driven into muscle cells, anabolism at its finest, this can be for hours with the right carb meal. Opposingly to eating pure protein, where you are cycling between anabolism and catabolism.

                            So yes, you can't build muscle without amino's, but eating carbs with your protein super charges muscle cell genesis.


                            Sent from my iPhone
                            A little primal gem - My Success Story
                            Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
                              I'm with Prime-Animal, there is so much contradictory info out there that it's hard to figure out what is what. I just finished reading this post and the above statement stuck with me. Then i hope on youtube and hit the next video on my feed and it's Nora Gedgaudes who goes on to say the following:

                              "The main driver of muscle protein synthesis is not insulin, but the availability of essential amino acids, in particular Leucine. ....if you consume sufficient protein after a workout, adding extra insulin provoking carbs is not going to improve your anabolic response."

                              - Ancestral Health Symposium 2012
                              Which is precisely why I don't tend toward the biochemistry as much as clinical trials. Biochem is good background noise to remember when I'm perusing a human trial or evaluating epidemiological studies. I believe Nora is right that the primary driver is sufficient proteins, but I would stipulate that you also need sufficient energy to drive the processes necessary to build lean mass. That energy does not have to be carbohydrate though. And it may not have to even be ingested fat. There are many verifiable studies of individuals gaining lean mass WHILE they lose body fat. Yes these are overweight individuals in which it occurs primarily, but it supports the fact that you carry with you Tens of thousands of calories worth of energy in the form of fat. As long as you have access to these stores and utilize them efficiently (i.e. eat nutrient dense so you have the cofactors needed), then you should have no problem with the energy end of what is needed to build lean mass.....

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                                How is that even possible ? I would gag after 5 or 6 normal bites ...
                                I like it. There is something satisfying to biting down on the firm flesh. Much more satisfying than whey.
                                Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

                                Comment

                                Working...
                                X