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The metabolic advantage hypothesis

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  • Originally posted by mikekola View Post
    Did Ray Peat ever actually cure anyone from T2 by removing veggie oils and increasing banana and gelatin, not to mention 10 cups of coffee a day?
    There's literature showing reversal of diabetes with crash diets and early insulin therapy. Has anyone cured diabetes (not just hyperglycemia) with low carb? There are many long, drawn-out debates about Gary Taubes's theory of obesity to be found online. I'd recommend reading them.

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    • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
      There's literature showing reversal of diabetes with crash diets and early insulin therapy. Has anyone cured diabetes (not just hyperglycemia) with low carb? There are many long, drawn-out debates about Gary Taubes's theory of obesity to be found online. I'd recommend reading them.
      What do you mean by "cure"? If you mean- getting your FBG to normal ranges, and HBA1c as well, then- yes. Read W. Lutz, Ch. Allen "Life Without Bread" or even "Wheat Belly" by W. Davis.

      Michal

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      • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
        There's literature showing reversal of diabetes with crash diets and early insulin therapy. Has anyone cured diabetes (not just hyperglycemia) with low carb? There are many long, drawn-out debates about Gary Taubes's theory of obesity to be found online. I'd recommend reading them.
        A crash diet, even a high carb one, is a low carb diet. I'm assuming by crash diet you mean a very low calorie diet.
        Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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        • Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
          A crash diet, even a high carb one, is a low carb diet.
          Good to know...
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
            There's literature showing reversal of diabetes with crash diets and early insulin therapy. Has anyone cured diabetes (not just hyperglycemia) with low carb? There are many long, drawn-out debates about Gary Taubes's theory of obesity to be found online. I'd recommend reading them.
            http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1263456
            "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

            B*tch-lite

            Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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            • Originally posted by mikekola View Post
              What do you mean by "cure"? If you mean- getting your FBG to normal ranges, and HBA1c as well, then- yes. Read W. Lutz, Ch. Allen "Life Without Bread" or even "Wheat Belly" by W. Davis
              Reducing your A1C and FBG by avoiding carbohydrates does not necessarily reverse beta cell dysfunction and restore hepatic insulin sensitivity. That's what I mean by cure.

              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
              A crash diet, even a high carb one, is a low carb diet. I'm assuming by crash diet you mean a very low calorie diet.
              Of course. I ran across a study once where they reduced liver fat with a low carb diet. It doesn't necessarily have to go one way or the other. The literature just points to a fairly specific etiology of diabetes that I've seen. I linked the commonly understood mechanisms a couple posts back.

              Of course, choline deficiency and a high intake of fructose and vegetable oil (how a lot of Americans eat) is going to exacerbate a fatty liver also.
              Last edited by Timthetaco; 10-17-2013, 12:13 PM.

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              • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                It's fruitless. He has his gods to worship. He won't recognize that TEF influences the "CO" portion of the "CICO" equation.

                If you tell him dietary fat is what's almost always stored as fat and carbohydrate isn't directly stored, he'll tell you you can't lose fat when insulin is high.

                When you tell him you need a calorie deficit is all that's needed to lose fat, that somehow negates that dietary fat is generally what's stored as fat.

                When you mention CICO, then TEF suddenly doesn't exist.

                It is this weird, convoluted thought process that's somehow strung together sporadically using fallacies to make arguments. It's like trying to find your way through a hedge maze.
                Let's be perfectly clear here ... you are making a claim that carbohydrates increase energy expenditure? That is, carbohydrates have a high thermic effect? Is that correct?

                -PK
                My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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                • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                  If fear of insulin level after a meal is the issue wouldn’t more fat delay absorption of protein and carbs and reduce the spike of insulin?
                  Insulin spikes are fundamental to life, without them, you die, so you should probably stop trying to minimize the insulin spike. The thing to do is to manage the frequency of insulin spikes, which is why I advocate a single meal a day. One large insulin spike, over in about an hour and change, and from that point onwards, you oxidize whatever you ate, irrespective of the actual macro nutrient breakdown.

                  -PK
                  My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                  Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                    Reducing your A1C and FBG by avoiding carbohydrates does not necessarily reverse beta cell dysfunction and restore hepatic insulin sensitivity. That's what I mean by cure.
                    That's why I asked. No matter what the "official" definition of diabetes is- the above definition of "cure" is what stops many people from successful management of this disease in the first place. 'I can't be treated, so why should I bother at all with diet', right?

                    I think- wrong. First of all, T2 diabetes *usually* means that pancreas is still potent enough to produce adequate amonut of insulin. It's the insulin resistance that is the bad guy. Second of all- I think that, like in all the other chronic diseases, what we should be mainly worried about are the complications and long-term effects- in this case, excess glycation and all its deadly effects.

                    If a low-carb diet can get one's BFG to NORMAL and HBA1c to healthy range- by improving insulin resistance- most likely that person should not be worried about the consequences of diabetes he'd otherwise would have to face. I think that's what matters- especially as we're facing T2 diabetes epidemic now.

                    Michael

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                    • Originally posted by mikekola View Post
                      If a low-carb diet can get one's BFG to NORMAL and HBA1c to healthy range- by improving insulin resistance- most likely that person should not be worried about the consequences of diabetes he'd otherwise would have to face. I think that's what matters- especially as we're facing T2 diabetes epidemic now.
                      You focus a lot on the blood sugar, and glycemic management is a good thing, but it doesn't imply a cure. If you've lost a tremendous amount of weight and exercise regularly, it's likely you've improved your insulin resistance. It can be tested with an OGTT, but most low carb diabetics seem to liken the test to chugging cyanide.

                      Steve Cooksey did well on a (self-administered) OGGT, and he was so excited about the results he decided to stay very low carb for the rest of his life, unnecessarily. To each their own.

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                      • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                        True Type 2 Diabetes makes your body physically unable to efficiently pull sugar out of your blood. It is glucose-wasting, so a significant portion of calories "do not count" because the body can't process them.

                        It also is a severe health-risk. In true Type 2 Diabetes, you excrete the excess sugar in your urine.
                        "True" T2DM? As opposed to what? I don't suppose you have anything resembling evidence to support this claim?

                        T1DM ( insulin dependent ) is an autoimmune disease in which the body attacks the beta cells of the pancreas, eventually, there are very few active cells left, and the individual is left incapable of producing insulin. This type of diabetes used to bear the name "juvenile diabetes" because being an autoimmune disease it would present early in life.

                        T2DM ( non-insulin dependent diabetes ) is a condition where the pancreas secretes more than enough insulin, but the body does not respond to insulin signalling. When the body becomes insulin resistant, this represents saturation of the largest energy sink that the the body possesses ... adipose tissue. Once adipose tissue can no longer assimilate nutrients, they remain in the distribution network : the circulatory system. Now, saturation of fat cells does not imply morbid obesity. Rather, it means that that particular individual has gotten as fat as they can. Depending on the underlying musculature, and the number and distribution of fat cells of the individual, they may not look particularly overweight. The caveat here is that our notion of what an overweight individual looks like is a moving target, and your average 30ish North American male is walking about with a body fat percentage in the mid 20s.

                        Your claim that you cannot assimilate calories if you have T2DM, and that this make those calories "not count" is ludicrous. The quickest, most effective way to remedy T2DM is to restore capacity to your adipose tissue. The way to do that is to draw down the contents of fat cells, and the quickest way to that is to not eat, to fast. The calorie that doesn't count is the one you don't put in your mouth. Otherwise, they all count.

                        -PK
                        My blog : cogitoergoedo.com

                        Interested in Intermittent Fasting? This might help: part 1, part 2, part 3.

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                        • Thank you for the contributions here.

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                          • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                            Let's be perfectly clear here ... you are making a claim that carbohydrates increase energy expenditure? That is, carbohydrates have a high thermic effect? Is that correct?

                            -PK
                            Carbohydrate on average has a higher thermic effect than fat on average.
                            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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                            • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                              "True" T2DM? As opposed to what?
                              As opposed to completely arbitrary numbers on a lab test.

                              A1c changes drastically in short order due to diet. An A1c number is used to determine if someone has Type 2 Diabetes, but simply avoiding carbohydrate for 2 or 3 weeks will lower your A1c number low enough to where you won't qualify as a Type 2 Diabetic. However, you've cured nothing, you've just removed sugar from your bloodstream. You still can't process it.

                              Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                              Your claim that you cannot assimilate calories if you have T2DM, and that this make those calories "not count" is ludicrous.
                              In actual Type 2 Diabetes, people excrete massive amounts of sugar in their urine. This is why contracting the disease typically causes weight loss - you lose a lot of the carbohydrate calories you ingest because you cannot assimilate them. Of course, this is extremely unhealthy to your blood glucose levels, but on the surface you "lose weight." You should do more research.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • Originally posted by pklopp View Post
                                "True" T2DM? As opposed to what? I don't suppose you have anything resembling evidence to support this claim?

                                T1DM ( insulin dependent ) is an autoimmune disease in which the body attacks the beta cells of the pancreas, eventually, there are very few active cells left, and the individual is left incapable of producing insulin. This type of diabetes used to bear the name "juvenile diabetes" because being an autoimmune disease it would present early in life.

                                T2DM ( non-insulin dependent diabetes ) is a condition where the pancreas secretes more than enough insulin, but the body does not respond to insulin signalling. When the body becomes insulin resistant, this represents saturation of the largest energy sink that the the body possesses ... adipose tissue. Once adipose tissue can no longer assimilate nutrients, they remain in the distribution network : the circulatory system. Now, saturation of fat cells does not imply morbid obesity. Rather, it means that that particular individual has gotten as fat as they can. Depending on the underlying musculature, and the number and distribution of fat cells of the individual, they may not look particularly overweight. The caveat here is that our notion of what an overweight individual looks like is a moving target, and your average 30ish North American male is walking about with a body fat percentage in the mid 20s.

                                Your claim that you cannot assimilate calories if you have T2DM, and that this make those calories "not count" is ludicrous. The quickest, most effective way to remedy T2DM is to restore capacity to your adipose tissue. The way to do that is to draw down the contents of fat cells, and the quickest way to that is to not eat, to fast. The calorie that doesn't count is the one you don't put in your mouth. Otherwise, they all count.

                                -PK
                                After a lot of google trawling I have come to the personal conclusion that body wide insulin resistance doesn't really happen. All of the symptoms we see are not the cause of IR but the result of one thing.

                                That is (and you alluded to it) that in IR and T2 diabetics the release of insulin is delayed and slow to rise. That is the cause, everything else we see is a result of that. Postprandialy glucose and fatty acid uptake in the liver, muscle and adipose tissue is blunted because of the still high glucagon and low insulin levels. Because glucagon is still high, glucose and fatty acids are still being released ONTOP of the already high post prandial serum levels of both substrates. Metformin is taken to counteract post prandial glucagon secretion.

                                When insulin levels finally rise (as you said the pancreas is still capable of high amounts of insulin release, Just that it is slow to rise and is delayed) the T2 diabetic respond normally to insulin. Filling its cells with the energy substrates circulating in the serum as a normal person would. This can be seen with insulin injections as well, they work quite fast, the body don't seem to have trouble processing insulin when injected intravenously.

                                So this is what I think IR and T2 diabetes is caused by; the signaling mechanism that "detects" serum glucose levels becomes progressively "resistant" to the high & prolonged levels of glucose in the blood. This causes a delayed and slowed insulin reaction, every symptom we see happens from here. Even tho the pancreas is still capable of 100% capacity it is not receiving the correct signal to release the appropriate amount of insulin. The body cells still have 100% insulin sensitivity when it finally arrives, just there is no insulin in the blood for our cells to be sensitive to for a while post prandialy.

                                The reason a low carb diet is effective in the control of IR and diabetes is that the body is running glucagon Postprandialy anyway, might as well feed it substrates that glucagon works to break down like proteins and fats. This also gives your BG detector time to become more sensitive to changes in BG. Reduce the so called "resistance" to insulin.
                                Last edited by dilberryhoundog; 10-17-2013, 09:36 PM.
                                A little primal gem - My Success Story
                                Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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