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The metabolic advantage hypothesis

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  • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
    Quoted for truth.
    This makes me laugh.

    How about this for a truth?
    No one here knows what causes any form of diabetes, they just have a variety of theories based on scattered data overlayed with their own personal belief stream.

    The answer lies in the "unknown unknown's" and to date they remain elusive.

    When you apply the "But Why" to all of these theories you ultimately get down to a "We really don't know"

    With regards to the study of metabolic processes we only find the things that we look for, new discoveries are generally accidental, how can you design a set of experiments to look for something when you don't know what it is.


    Now with regard to the Metabolic Advantage Hypothesis, it seems evident there is no metabolic advantage with either of the energy macro's, there is merely differences in the way they are processed by the body which is determined by the body's current state of being and the way it sees fit to distribute it's fuel supply, overall carbs will build up fat stores just as well as fat does.
    "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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    • >Beetus and metabolic syndrome a recent phenomena
      >Critical thought and research points to it occurring around the same time as introduction and wide consumption of massive unphysiological amounts of unsaturated fats
      >Billions of people consume majority of their daily energy from carbohydrates, no metabolic syndrome
      >Scientific research backs this theory with biological processes

      NOPE IT'S UNPROVEN LA LA LA. They isolate these responses, it's not exactly going in blind with nothing to look for.

      You assert your uncertainty with absolute conviction, it's rather amusing.
      Make America Great Again

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      • The metabolic advantage comes from which macros are favorable and which are detrimental. Its pretty simple. All the low carb studies show is that in one month of starving yourself, low carb will burn more calories. That proves nothing about metabolic advantage. If anything it shows the opposite. If you want to come at everything from a fat loss perspective then maybe you will reason that low carb is better. Come at it from a staying lean and healthy perspective and its obvious that carbs are essential.

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        • Originally posted by Omni View Post
          How about this for a truth? No one here knows what causes any form of diabetes, they just have a variety of theories based on scattered data overlayed with their own personal belief stream.
          I quoted that statement because it's been shown in the literature (that I've read) to be true. Large adipocytes spilling out FFA's that leads to ectopic fat deposition is a fairly uncontroversial truth in the matter, isn't it? Once you find the cause of the sick adipocyte, you've found the cause of diabetes!

          And I really doubt it's carbohydrates.

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          • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post
            >Beetus and metabolic syndrome a recent phenomena
            >Critical thought and research points to it occurring around the same time as introduction and wide consumption of massive unphysiological amounts of unsaturated fats
            >Billions of people consume majority of their daily energy from carbohydrates, no metabolic syndrome
            >Scientific research backs this theory with biological processes

            NOPE IT'S UNPROVEN LA LA LA. They isolate these responses, it's not exactly going in blind with nothing to look for.

            You assert your uncertainty with absolute conviction, it's rather amusing.
            And you assert your certainty with such conviction,
            Every good scientist knows one thing for sure, is that another scientist in the future will disprove their theory and supercede it with a better one.

            Diabetes & metabolic syndrome only accelerated during recent history, but they both pre date this period by hundreds of years at the very least. When you talk about corrolations, overlay all the other corrolations to the same event, fridges, personal vehicle transport, mobile phones, space travel, international travel etc. etc.

            You've missed the point, they only see what they were looking for, not what they weren't looking for, there is a multitude of processes occuring within the body that we are not familiar with.
            "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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            • Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
              And I really doubt it's carbohydrates.
              So you don't know what causes it then, fine neither do I we just have different suspicions.
              "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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              • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                The metabolic advantage comes from which macros are favorable and which are detrimental. Its pretty simple. All the low carb studies show is that in one month of starving yourself, low carb will burn more calories. That proves nothing about metabolic advantage. If anything it shows the opposite. If you want to come at everything from a fat loss perspective then maybe you will reason that low carb is better. Come at it from a staying lean and healthy perspective and its obvious that carbs are essential.
                The original question was, is there a metabolic advantage in consuming carbohydrates over fat?
                Seems there isn't.

                Neither carbs nor fat is more essential then the other, the body can make do with either, but for the best outcome for most people, I think it would prefer both.
                "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                • Originally posted by Omni View Post
                  The original question was, is there a metabolic advantage in consuming carbohydrates over fat?
                  Seems there isn't.

                  Neither carbs nor fat is more essential then the other, the body can make do with either, but for the best outcome for most people, I think it would prefer both.
                  Long term metabolic advantage clearly favors carbs.

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                  • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                    My point is that if you think insulin production wears out the pancreas and leads to diabetes, then you must believe regular meat consumption to be unhealthy, correct? The only thing safe to consume regularly, then, is fat, and carbohydrate and protein would fall to the wayside.

                    I don't think diabetes has anything to do with your pancreas wearing out or too much insulin production. I think diabetes has to do with too much free fatty acids in the bloodstream constantly, which over time causes insulin resistance and eventually your cells can no longer uptake sugar, so it sits in your blood. I think polyunsaturated fat is the cause, since your body cannot metabolize it efficiently, like it can with SFA and MUFA. FFA's that cannot be burned efficiently that your body also doesn't want to store (hence your body only manufactures SFA and MUFA, not PUFA) would have them floating around in your bloodstream too much, causing insulin resistance.

                    When you ingest sugar, it is preferentially burned. Imagine consuming sugar, but the FFA's still sit in your blood and you cannot clear them. So now you have lots of FFA AND SUGAR in your bloodstream. Your body can't clear the FFA because it is toxic FFA, and it inhibits the glucose oxidation, so sugar sits in your blood beyond 3 hours and becomes toxic. THAT is what I believe the mechanism behind Type 2 Diabetes is - toxic fats in your blood stopping your body's ability to clear glucose.

                    A good prescription for stopping that would be a very low PUFA diet and cyclical carbohydrate dieting to restore insulin sensitivity. My opinion.
                    Haha nuthin wrong with insulin in your blood. I described it as the >>chronic<< stressing of the pancreatic beta cells, this means usage above and beyond normal. Somewhere above 12 hours per day of insulin. It's simple, all body tissue needs rest, on a constant insulin cycle doesn't leave much rest for the beta cells.

                    I was already explaining to derp that it is scientific fact that insulin response in IR and T2 diabetics, is delayed and is slow to rise, the the further into IR you go the longer it takes for the insulin response to kick in. High blood fats is the "RESULT" of this. Lipolysis and glucogenisis are still happening while blood sugar has risen sharply from ingested food. This adds more BG and more FFA's then what would be normal from digestion.

                    Catabolism isn't being shut down when you spike blood sugar because of the delayed insulin response. <<< this is diabetes.


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                    A little primal gem - My Success Story
                    Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                    • Originally posted by Zach View Post
                      Long term metabolic advantage clearly favors carbs.
                      Why?
                      "There are no short cuts to enlightenment, the journey is the destination, you have to walk this path alone"

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                      • Regarding hyperglycemia in T2D, if anyone's interested.

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                        • Originally posted by Derpamix View Post

                          There is no mechanism for the impairment of insulin simply by stimulating its secretion, this is adhering to the idea that cells simply shut down in a surplus.
                          There is nothing inherently wrong with the secretion of insulin, it's the over secretion of insulin that has detrimental effects.

                          It's the same as being chronically stressed from over running or over working. Running or working or insulin secretion is not a bad thing on its own. When we aren't getting enough rest from running or working or insulin secretion that's when damage starts to slowly creep in.

                          Yes you are right there are a few billion of people who eat predominantly carbs but don't have metabolic syndrome / IR. There is one reason why this is so.... Many of those billions also go long periods without eating anything or eating other macros resulting in a good daily balance with glucagon. Only those that have an insulin spike every few hours day after day get metabolic disorders from stressing out their beta cells


                          Sent from my iPhone
                          A little primal gem - My Success Story
                          Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                          • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                            There is nothing inherently wrong with the secretion of insulin, it's the over secretion of insulin that has detrimental effects.

                            It's the same as being chronically stressed from over running or over working. Running or working or insulin secretion is not a bad thing on its own. When we aren't getting enough rest from running or working or insulin secretion that's when damage starts to slowly creep in.

                            Yes you are right there are a few billion of people who eat predominantly carbs but don't have metabolic syndrome / IR. There is one reason why this is so.... Many of those billions also go long periods without eating anything or eating other macros resulting in a good daily balance with glucagon. Only those that have an insulin spike every few hours day after day get metabolic disorders from stressing out their beta cells


                            Sent from my iPhone
                            So if the billions and billion of healthy people who have lived on high carb diets over the years ate the same foods and same number of calories, but spread as a bunch of small meals, they would be rampant with diabetes? Cool story bro.

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                            • Doesn't it have more to do with this combo:
                              - sugar "drip" + PUFAs + chronic inflammation + extreme sedentarism ?
                              If you never move, your muscles will never really stay insulin sensitive, no ? Adding sugar and PUFAs on top of that, having inflammation all over, eating stuff that triggers nutritional deficiencies making you semi-starved all the time and turning you into a compulsive eater of the same crap foods, still without moving your body (you know, driving every day to the local McDrive or whatever you call them in the US, stuff yourself with junk, go back home and slouch in from of the teevee ...)

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                              • Originally posted by FrenchFry View Post
                                Doesn't it have more to do with this combo:
                                - sugar "drip" + PUFAs + chronic inflammation + extreme sedentarism ?
                                If you never move, your muscles will never really stay insulin sensitive, no ? Adding sugar and PUFAs on top of that, having inflammation all over, eating stuff that triggers nutritional deficiencies making you semi-starved all the time and turning you into a compulsive eater of the same crap foods, still without moving your body (you know, driving every day to the local McDrive or whatever you call them in the US, stuff yourself with junk, go back home and slouch in from of the teevee ...)
                                It's almost like America's health issues are multifaceted and blaming "sugar" is ignorant and short-sighted.
                                Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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