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  • #31
    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
    Well, considering that a lot of prisons are actually for-profit companies that lobby the government, and also have the most powerful union members in the US (prison guard unions, also lobbying the government), then yes, it is a racket.
    +1000 - Prisons were privatized w/govt contracts to cronies a while ago.

    Originally posted by EagleRiverDee View Post
    Saw that this morning as well. I have little sympathy for the inmates, but it's certainly added incentive to follow the law.
    I'd wager that the average Joe is more afraid of getting ass raped than he is of eating veggies for an extended time. The biggest property crooks are our lawmakers. It's all petty after that. Truly smart criminals either bargain for their freedom, or have an exit strategy for after the crime.

    If a country has enough laws, it can make the majority of its citizens criminals. In that way it exerts control.
    "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

    B*tch-lite

    Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by EagleRiverDee View Post
      Saw that this morning as well. I have little sympathy for the inmates, but it's certainly added incentive to follow the law.
      I'm sorry but I have to totally disagree on this one. The USA has more laws on the books than any other nation in the world. Again, a majority of the inmates in prison are there for non-violent, consensual acts (usually drugs).

      A large percentage of the inmates that are in there for violent crimes are crimes that were drug related. If drugs were legalized, the prison population would be reduced by more than half. But they can't have that because of the huge budgets that could no longer be justified, the highly-profitable contracts would go away and people would be put out of work.

      Here is an example of what I mean, this article shows who the 5 biggest supporters of keeping marijuana illegal are and they all have a financial interest in keeping it that way:

      The Top Five Special Interest Groups Lobbying To Keep Marijuana Illegal | Republic Report

      Beyond the cost (to us taxpayers) of the War on Drugs, there is the human cost of not only the inmates but the cost to the families of the inmates who have had their lives turned upside down over something as minor as a bit of weed.

      According to the Journal of the American Medical Association, two-hundred and ninety people in the United States are killed by prescription drugs every day. And that does not count the number of patients that die from malpractice and medical mistakes.

      Why is someone that is harmed by prescription drugs a victim but someone that smokes a bit of weed a criminal?

      And my opinions are based on many years of experience dealing with both. I spent almost 20 years in emergency medical services with brief breaks where I did law enforcement. Law enforcement was not for me because, and this was back in the 80s, the un-Constitutionality of the laws I was supposed to enforce was just not right. I have seen people arrested for having a t-shirt with a marijuana leaf on it because of paraphernalia laws in Texas.

      I have never, in all my years as a paramedic, picked up anyone that was stoned on weed and had an accident, killed anyone, overdosed or did anything violent...NEVER!

      The numbers of people that I have picked up that were dead or injured by alcohol are in the thousands. Yet, people that are using a bit of weed in their own home are in prison, people with full liquor cabinets are not.

      So where is the justice in our so-called justice system?

      In a common sense society, your rights would end where mine began. Smoke weed, get drunk off your ass, shoot up peanut butter, whatever, it is your life to mess up and none of my business nor should it be the business of the government what we put into our bodies.

      But, like someone said, common sense is not very common.

      An excellent article about this can be found here.

      The USA ceased being the "Home of the free, land of the brave" decades ago.

      http://www.backwoodshome.com/article...veira77lw.html

      And finally,

      If you really mean your statement:

      Originally posted by EagleRiverDee View Post
      I have little sympathy for the inmates, but it's certainly added incentive to follow the law.
      I suppose your OK with stories like this from Forbes:

      http://www.forbes.com/sites/erikkain...k-controversy/

      From the story:

      In fact, it is hardly a lone instance of government cracking down on the sale of raw milk.

      Police arrested James Stewart, the owner of Rawesome Foods, and two raw milk suppliers, Sharon Ann Palmer and Eugenie Bloch of Healthy Family Farms.
      Those nasty, nasty criminals! How dare they do anything that is not sanctioned by the nanny state! Criminals, criminals all! Throw them in jail for their consensual acts and feed those "inmates" vegetarian meals! No "sympathy"!

      Right?
      Last edited by texas.grok; 09-27-2013, 01:50 AM. Reason: Added another article, I'm done now...I think.
      Randal
      AKA: Texas Grok

      Originally posted by texas.grok
      Facebook is to intelligence what a black hole is to light
      http://hardcoremind.com/

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
        What's wrong with the god ol' bread and water for the inmates? Now they will be tortured with broccoli and carrots instead…
        No, it'll be processed soy, wheat, and corn products. They'll be lucky to get vegetables.

        I read an article a while back about societies without prisons- Amish, hunter-gatherers, tribal societies, etc. They all have mechanisms in place to get someone to stop doing something without imprisoning them, and I seem to recall that it is really really rare that they shun or excommunicate anyone. The problem with it is that you have to have a solid community or tribe - the whole village helps in rehabilitating someone. The US is large and aloof enough that people can disappear into the cracks, stewing in their own thoughts without any real social interactions.

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        • #34
          Originally posted by jfreaksho View Post
          I read an article a while back about societies without prisons- Amish, hunter-gatherers, tribal societies, etc. They all have mechanisms in place to get someone to stop doing something without imprisoning them, and I seem to recall that it is really really rare that they shun or excommunicate anyone. The problem with it is that you have to have a solid community or tribe - the whole village helps in rehabilitating someone. The US is large and aloof enough that people can disappear into the cracks, stewing in their own thoughts without any real social interactions.
          You're really on to something here. Just wanted to pick a nit: Rehabilitation is not the issue, for the most part, in these societies. People who feel like they're part of a tribe don't want to hurt the tribe. While people in any living situation are capable of being greedy, violent, and otherwise ugly, there's systems in place for discouraging and dealing with the consequences of such actions in these societies, rather than laws "against" them.

          A martian anthropologist would look at our society, who writes laws we know will be broken, and then locks up the people who break them, and write us off as being insane.

          Rightly so.
          The Champagne of Beards

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          • #35
            The reality is, it wasn't like they were eating Primal before. They were eating processed junk still - just junk that supported the conventional farming industry instead of junk that doesn't. It would be absolutely financially impossible for them to move to supporting conscientiously raised meat industry, not to mention the negative impact it would have on the supply and demand of those trying to eat Primally who are NOT behind bars... In this case, I think it is a great idea. There is absolutely ZERO excuse for supporting conventional farming on a mass scale. If you're going to end up in prison or the hospital, the food will kill you anyway - even if the tasteless "whatever" burgers with filler were still on the menu. Who here actually has any delusion that the inmates were eating clean meat and salad?! LOL

            ETA: removed chicken breast. Chicken breast is expensive.
            Last edited by GrokON; 09-27-2013, 09:21 AM.
            5'6" Female, 29 Years Old, 260/195/120

            "Discipline is choosing between what you want NOW, and what you want MOST!"

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            • #36
              Wow- a couple of you all read WAY more into my one little sentence than you should have, and got it wrong to boot. Texas Grok, in particular, spent a lot of time on a diatribe about me making assumptions that are incorrect. I am, and have been for years, libertarian on drug use and think it should be decriminalized. I think raw milk- and a number of other things- should be left alone also. It does not change the reality that these prisoners knowingly broke a law currently in effect, and it falls under "do the crime, do the time" and while doing time you're going to eat crappy institutional food. The food will suck, and will be unhealthy, no matter what. So whether you agree with the law or not, you should probably choose to follow it or you risk being locked up and eating crappy food. There's a lot of laws I don't agree with. I don't like paying my taxes, either. But I follow the law. The folks in prison chose not to, and this is the consequence of that choice.
              High Weight: 225
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              • #37
                I got your point completely Dee and also think the response was a big overreaction and misinterpretation of your comment. I feel much as you. Not against drugs (done my share) and consume raw milk products (wow, I'm breaking the law).
                Starting Weight: 197.5
                Current Weight: 123
                Far healthier!

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by EagleRiverDee View Post
                  It does not change the reality that these prisoners knowingly broke a law currently in effect, and it falls under "do the crime, do the time" and while doing time you're going to eat crappy institutional food.
                  I don't disagree that the prisoners knowingly broke the laws currently in affect. This part of your previous point was what got me going.

                  Originally posted by EagleRiverDee View Post
                  I have little sympathy for the inmates
                  If you are in fact a Libertarian, you should have loads of sympathy for people that are unjustly locked up for crimes that should not be crimes.

                  Just because the laws are on the books, does not make them moral or just. People that break those laws that are in fact, unjust, deserve our sympathies.

                  If we don't stand up and express our outrage and yes, sympathies towards the people in prison that are caged for violation of unjust laws, then who will?

                  Saying that they knowingly broke the law is one thing, saying that you have no sympathies for them is another.

                  The laws are wrong, the caging of people for breaking these laws is wrong, saying "do the crime, do the time" just does not hold water in the instances where consensual acts have been criminalized.
                  Randal
                  AKA: Texas Grok

                  Originally posted by texas.grok
                  Facebook is to intelligence what a black hole is to light
                  http://hardcoremind.com/

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by texas.grok View Post
                    Just because the laws are on the books, does not make them moral or just. People that break those laws that are in fact, unjust, deserve our sympathies.

                    If we don't stand up and express our outrage and yes, sympathies towards the people in prison that are caged for violation of unjust laws, then who will?
                    This.

                    I don't agree with the "do the crime, do the time" argument at all. If the law is unjust and has criminalized an act that is not wrong in itself (mala in se -- Latin to show that I'm smart ), then the people who are thrown in jail for breaking the unjust law are victims. Why should they have to "do the time" when they have done nothing wrong?

                    By saying "do the crime, do the time," you're implying that the law, any law, has moral authority simply because some politicians decided to pass that law. This is ridiculous. There are unjust laws (such as drug laws) that everyone has a right to break. And then there are laws (or we could imagine the existence of such laws) that I believe I would have the moral obligation to break. (I used "I" here because I don't actually believe that anyone has a positive moral obligation to do anything, but my personal moral beliefs sometimes impose certain obligations on myself.)

                    Janie--you said that you've done your share of drugs. How would you feel if you had been arrested for doing drugs and then thrown in jail. Would you think that you deserved it because you "did the crime"?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by bloodorchid View Post
                      i'm more worried about being cornered in the showers by a group of tough women while naked then being forced to submit to their soapy, groping hands

                      touching...

                      caressing...

                      sneering...
                      One persons fear, another's fantasy.
                      I find your lack of bacon disturbing.

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by diene View Post
                        Janie--you said that you've done your share of drugs. How would you feel if you had been arrested for doing drugs and then thrown in jail. Would you think that you deserved it because you "did the crime"?
                        Actually, yes.
                        Did I think the law was wrong? You betcha. Do I still? Yes, again.
                        But here's the thing: I knew the law and chose to take the risk knowing there could possibly be repercussions.
                        If there had been I would have accepted it as my responsibility b/c I knew the risk and made that choice.
                        Starting Weight: 197.5
                        Current Weight: 123
                        Far healthier!

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by janie View Post
                          Actually, yes.
                          Did I think the law was wrong? You betcha. Do I still? Yes, again.
                          But here's the thing: I knew the law and chose to take the risk knowing there could possibly be repercussions.
                          If there had been I would have accepted it as my responsibility b/c I knew the risk and made that choice.
                          I think there's a difference between taking responsibility for the consequences and believing that you deserve it. But maybe that's just me. Would you have thought that you deserved it?

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                          • #43
                            I think of it this way. If you do something that is morally neutral but that comes with a risk, such as gambling, then when you lose all your money, you have to take responsibility for that outcome. But that doesn't mean you deserved to lose. I think you'd only deserve a bad outcome if you did something wrong. For example, if you tried to rape someone and they shot you in the face, I'd say you deserved to be shot.


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                            • #44
                              I didn't say I would have "deserved" it.

                              What I said was that I understood the law and made my choice with full understanding of the possibility of repercussion. It is called taking responsibility for your actions.
                              Starting Weight: 197.5
                              Current Weight: 123
                              Far healthier!

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                              • #45
                                Well, then we agree. The non-violent drug offenders in prison don't deserve to be there. They don't deserve imprisonment or any of the incidents of imprisonment. So don't they deserve our sympathy?

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