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  • Today's Fiber Blog

    Loved today's blog on fiber--Mark got it mostly right and at least trivialized the crap Konny was spreading last week. Did you notice his recommendation of raw plantains and green bananas? What do you supposed that was about?

    I posted this comment, but it went straight to mod, probably because of the link:

    Yep, to deny that our gut flora need proper care and feeding puts one in the dark ages.

    The only problem I have with your post, Mark, are the terms ‘soluble’ and ‘insoluble’ as descriptors for ‘fermentable’ and ‘non-fermentable’. There is soluble fiber that are non-fermentable, and insoluble fiber that is fermentable. Also, some soluble, fermentable fiber is targeted more by pathogenic bacteria.

    If we look at the FODMAPs, some of them are good ‘gut-bug’ food, and some are not.

    Better descriptors for fiber recommendations would probably be ‘bifidogenic’, ‘butyrogenic’, or just ‘prebiotic’ fiber. These terms all relate to how beneficial gut microbes react to the food source.

    Termed as I described, it would be clearer to see that the most important fibers probably are inulin, pectin, oligosaccharides, gums, mucins, and resistant starch.

    Your recommendation of: “stuff like raw onion and garlic, leeks, jerusalem artichokes, dandelion greens, raw plantains and green bananas” gets us inulin and resistant starch. I’d like to give a shout-out here for properly prepared (fermented) legumes, raw potato and tapioca starch, parbroiled/converted rice, and…a daily apple — see Friendly bacteria love the humble apple


    Read more: Dear Mark: What’s the Deal with Fiber? | Mark's Daily Apple

  • #2
    way to go

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    • #3
      I am very interested in the discussion! I am trying to optimize the digestion, and I gotta say that I am not a fan of raw green veggies eating in public. And I rarely like salads, particularly without tubers.

      I am also wondering if one needs to eat all prepared grains cold to get the resistant starch benefit, not just rice (I mean buckwheat and millet).
      Last edited by Leida; 09-09-2013, 09:11 AM.
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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      • #4
        Nice dude, I hope it gets approved.
        Depression Lies

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        • #5
          Originally posted by Leida View Post
          I am very interested in the discussion! I am trying to optimize the digestion, and I gotta say that I am not a fan of raw green veggies eating in public. And I rarely like salads, particularly without tubers.

          I am also wondering if one needs to eat all prepared grains cold to get the resistant starch benefit, not just rice (I mean buckwheat and millet).
          Leida - Here is a link to a Master RS List: RS Contents in Food


          You will probably be surprised at the paltry amounts in most foods, and by surprisingly high amounts in others. One incredibly rich source is raw, green plantains. The only way I have found to make them edible, however, is to cut into thin slices and dehydrate or air dry. They can be salted or spiced to taste while still moist, hot pepper, cinnamon, whatever, they have the texture and consistency of Saltine crackers when dried. 1 large plantain will yield about 40g of RS, so eating 1/4 to 1/2 a plantain a day gives you all the RS you'd ever need.

          Legumes are another great source of RS and fermentable fibers. If you soak them for 24 hours, then bring to a hard boil for 10 minutes and then simmer on low heat for 2-3 hours, all the bad stuff is gone, leaving good fibers and RS behind. Cook them like this, then freezing and reheating will double the available RS.

          If these don't suit you, boil and chill potatoes for some RS, but it would be hard to get 5g/day doing this. Also, bananas as green as you can stand have great RS. Fully green, they have about 30g--it disappears completely when fully ripe, so stages inbetween fully green and fully ripe have diminishing RS returns.

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          • #6
            Hey Otzi. Great and interesting post. Not to throw a curve in here, but did the dispute about whether or not the butyrate in butter reaches the colon ever get resolved?

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            • #7
              Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
              Hey Otzi. Great and interesting post. Not to throw a curve in here, but did the dispute about whether or not the butyrate in butter reaches the colon ever get resolved?
              That dispute will never get resolved. The VLC crowd will say you don't need butyrate from gut bacteria, the gut bacteria loving crowd will say you do need it. They will point to Inuits, we will point to published studies. It's an impossible debate. I've learned to live with it and won't argue about it.

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              • #8
                Thank you, Otzi. I am mostly wondering about millet and buckwheat, rather than the exotics like plantains but it could be interesting to try them in dehydrator (cheaper atm than the yum). I gave up on soaking and cooking legumes a while back for the lack of time. I might try again.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  Thank you, Otzi. I am mostly wondering about millet and buckwheat, rather than the exotics like plantains but it could be interesting to try them in dehydrator (cheaper atm than the yum). I gave up on soaking and cooking legumes a while back for the lack of time. I might try again.
                  Almost all nuts, grains, and seeds contain 5-10g of RS per 100g of dried product. 100g of buckwheat is about 1/2 cup before cooking and contains about 350 calories for 5-10g of RS. A large banana has about 120 calories when fully ripe. Eat it when it is still green and you will get 10-30g of RS depending on ripeness.

                  That's kind of always been the problem with RS. It's hard to get in meaningful quantities from regular foods without a high calorie cost. Thinking outside the box a bit can easily quadruple your rewards.

                  The average RS intake in the westernized world is 3-5g per day, mostly from cereal grains. An LC paleo diet typically yields even less than the SAD, but with the inclusion of green bananas, dried plantains, legumes, cold rice and potatoes, this can easily be up to 30g per day without many extra calories. In fact, many are using raw potato starch and tapioca starch to provide measured doses of RS. These starches have about 8g per TBS, but must be consumed in raw state as in added to a smoothie, milk, kefir, or yogurt etc...

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by otzi View Post
                    That dispute will never get resolved. The VLC crowd will say you don't need butyrate from gut bacteria, the gut bacteria loving crowd will say you do need it. They will point to Inuits, we will point to published studies. It's an impossible debate. I've learned to live with it and won't argue about it.
                    Thanks. I will live with the ambiguity too. Maybe take the belts and suspenders approach, which means adding some resistant starch in some form.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by OneDeltaTenTango View Post
                      Thanks. I will live with the ambiguity too. Maybe take the belts and suspenders approach, which means adding some resistant starch in some form.
                      My approach has been to try to eat a wide variety of plants daily without overthinking it, just broadening my horizons at the salad bar, really, you know, like those weird little chickpea things and green onion tops that hardly anybody eats...

                      I also started eating legumes, mostly black and pinto beans, a couple times a week, and munching a cold potato once or twice a week. I buy a bunch of really green bananas every Friday and eat one a day--by the end of the week they are pretty yellow. I make dried plantain chips every couple months and eat them for a week or two. I buy bags of potato and tapioca starch and keep them on the counter in glass containers meant for the SAD, one says 'sugar' the other says 'flour', lol.

                      Whenever I make a smoothie or homemade ice cream, which is a couple times a week, I put an unmeasured scoop of one or both in there. Too easy, really.

                      If glucose regulation and control is important, and I think it is, adding 10-20g of RS a day to your diet does a fantastic job of preventing spikes and lowering post prandial responses.

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                      • #12
                        those weird little chickpea things
                        If you buy them dry and soak and cook them, then combine with olive oil, garlic, and lemon juice, you have hummus. It might be good with your plaintain chips.
                        "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                        B*tch-lite

                        Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                        • #13
                          Originally posted by otzi View Post
                          That's kind of always been the problem with RS. It's hard to get in meaningful quantities from regular foods without a high calorie cost. Thinking outside the box a bit can easily quadruple your rewards.
                          Perhaps if it is so difficult to do it actually isn't needed in such "meaningful" quantities. Maybe only a small amount is needed and perhaps only infrequently.

                          As for raw plantains? No thank you.

                          A nice way to eat cold sweet potatoes (I assume they have some resistant starch):

                          - 1 medium cooked kumara or sweet potato. Peel off the skin, plop in a bowl and mash it up.
                          - Add 1 heaping spoonful of almond butter
                          - Add seasoning. I like curry powder. Or don't add seasoning.
                          - Add 3 egg whites (leftover from your primal egg coffee)
                          - Mix this all together and microwave it in the bowl for 3 minutes.
                          - Turn it out of the bowl onto the counter right away.
                          - After it cools a little, slice it in half to form two rounds.
                          - Store these rounds in the fridge and use for open-face sandwiches.
                          Makes two open faced sandwich rounds.
                          Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Leida View Post
                            I am very interested in the discussion! I am trying to optimize the digestion, and I gotta say that I am not a fan of raw green veggies eating in public. And I rarely like salads, particularly without tubers.
                            Why not, is eating raw vegetables kind of "suspicious" in your place? Typically I eat raw broccoli, raddish and fresh cheese in office when I break my fast at 2 PM! Then I go to the gym two blocks away for my work-out...
                            "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                            - Schopenhauer

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                              Perhaps if it is so difficult to do it actually isn't needed in such "meaningful" quantities. Maybe only a small amount is needed and perhaps only infrequently.

                              As for raw plantains? No thank you.

                              A nice way to eat cold sweet potatoes (I assume they have some resistant starch):

                              - 1 medium cooked kumara or sweet potato. Peel off the skin, plop in a bowl and mash it up.
                              - Add 1 heaping spoonful of almond butter
                              - Add seasoning. I like curry powder. Or don't add seasoning.
                              - Add 3 egg whites (leftover from your primal egg coffee)
                              - Mix this all together and microwave it in the bowl for 3 minutes.
                              - Turn it out of the bowl onto the counter right away.
                              - After it cools a little, slice it in half to form two rounds.
                              - Store these rounds in the fridge and use for open-face sandwiches.
                              Makes two open faced sandwich rounds.
                              Your entire post exemplifies 30 years of misunderstanding resistant starch, if I may pick on you...you make it seem implausible that we could get RS naturally, and your solution (sweet potatoes) contain about zero RS, even when cold.

                              Eating things you gathered in the wild would ensure a lot of different beneficial microbes and prebiotics, not just resistant starch, but RS is certainly found in great quantities in the food our ancestors evolved along with--plantains, bananas, taro root, sago palm, nuts, seeds, cattail roots, plant pollen, cassava, potatoes and rice--it's only hard to get in the modern world where overripe is preferred over underripe and things are only eaten cooked and hot.

                              RS has proven to be a distraction from the real message of 'feed your gut bacteria'. If RS was called 'Butyrate Magic', people would scramble for it, but the word 'starch' in the name turns people off.

                              From what I have read, and I read a lot, we should try to hit a minimum of 15g of fermentable carbohydrates per day for a minimal level of butyrate and to keep friendly gut microbes happy. Eating a BAS with just green leafy and regular salad bar fare will net you maybe 2-5g of inulin and trace amounts of other fermentable fibers. Throwing in one greenish banana will easily double that, and eating a serving of beans triples it. An upper level of about 40g per day, where more can't be fully utilized, can be had with a BAS, beans, cold potatoes, very green bananas, dried plantains, or simply a BAS and 3TBS of raw potato starch.

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