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  • gaining fat AND losing muscle on paleo

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    Last edited by fixie; 09-06-2013, 01:17 AM.

  • #2
    Zoloft is notorious for weight gain.
    Possibly not enough sleep.
    5'0" female, 45 years old. Started Primal October 31, 2011, at a skinny fat 111.5 lbs. Low weight: 99.5 lb on a fast. Gained back to 115(!) on SAD chocolate, potato chips, and stress. Currently 111.

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    • #3
      Hello, and welcome around here

      You said
      had a little trouble with muscle mass, but decided to crank up the proteine to get that going. i ditched milk, hard cheese, and upped on avocado, mayonnaise, fatty fish.
      I have a hard time to link the 2 statements: to gain muscle mass, you actually ditched proteins and upped the fat ...
      I am no expert, but to my mind, that's a pretty bad move. Considering your job, I would say you should eat a lot of high quality proteins, good carbs (tubers, starchy veggies, fruits) and some fat for the taste of things (a bit of butter, tallow, duck fat or fatty meat without indulging and drowning your plate with fat). I would not necessarily drink milk (you're a grown-up) but fermented dairy is great! Hard cheeses, yes! Aged gouda = lots of K2, go for it!! yogurt, kefir, etc. Heavy cream ? a little, it tastes really good but that may be too fat as a daily thing on its own (I could have a bowl of it with berries and honey but if I did that every day, my belly would grow wrong ...).

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      • #4
        Originally posted by fixie View Post
        i hope some-one can help me, because i'm starting to get desperate...
        i have been been quite paleo since 6 months (before had some bad habits i had to kick), though due to financial constraints eating dairy, sometimes legumes and only fatty fish when i can afford it, and never the organic kind). untill recently it was working out quite well, especially as i started to eat whey proteine before work outs. i did 2/3 times a week weight practice, about 45 minutes and for the rest a lot of low heart rate moving around, cycling, swimming, an occasional 30 minute run for the happy hormones. i was losing a lot of fat, and had a little trouble with muscle mass, but decided to crank up the proteine to get that going. i ditched milk, hard cheese, and upped on avocado, mayonnaise, fatty fish.
        since 1 month i've started working as a bicycle messenger, which right now i do 3 afternoons a week. this is 3/4 hours of cycling, but not continuous, more interval-ish. i started eating dried fruit during the cycling, but i keep being hungry, i keep feeling glycogen drained during training, and i lost muscle mass AND gained fat mass. my fat percentage is now at 31% which i find way to high. what can i do? am i eating to little (it doesnt feel like it, i eat a jar of mayonnaise a month, eggs everyday, avocado, lots of soup with coconut, big salads with feta)? but if i should eat more, should it be a proteine carb low fat thing, or just more fat? i am getting desperate, i want to lose fat mass, i want to be good at my work, i dont want to feel like an eating machine...
        oh the stats, i'm a 31 year old woman, and i take zoloft, and i experienced a lot of tiredness last couple of months... i sleep quite well, about 6/7 hours a day, but also take a nap everyday, about 1/2 hour...
        well, i know it's all a bit vague, but maybe somebody recognizes something from own experience... tnx!
        Okay a few problems here. Have your protein after workout, not before. And preferably an hour or so afterwards.

        Mayonnaise is egg yolk and oil. If you aren't making it yourself with olive/coconut oil/butter, its going to be made with bad oils such as canola and sunflower.

        Dried fruit is basically candy, and spiking your blood sugar is why you are constantly hungry.

        You are not eating enough protein. The Zoloft is a problem too

        Why so much mayo? And why that instead of coconut oil and real butter/ghee? How much meat are you eating? Vegetables? Maybe instead of eating dried fruit you should eat some macadamias and/or almonds? Try getting rid of dairy for a month or so, then bring it back in small occasional amounts if you wish. Stop eating mayo unless you've made it yourself. No dried fruit. Eat meat. Fatty fish. Vegetables.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by oxide View Post
          Zoloft is notorious for weight gain.
          Possibly not enough sleep.
          That's not how medications work. The medications get blamed for this sort of thing, but there isn't anything you can put into a pill that will cause people to gain weight that aren't consuming more calories than they're burning and storing the excess.

          I've been on a number of medications over the years, and I have yet to come across one that was capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics. It also does a disservice to the OP as it gives the impression that medications will lead to an inevitable weight gain if she's one of those effected. And she's trying to take responsibility for whatever she might be doing to contribute. Now, if she does everything perfectly and still has problems, then might be the time to consider if there's something funky going on that's caused by the medication.

          I'm guessing that FrenchFry is onto something here. It sounds a bit like the OP isn't consuming enough protein to enable her body to repair and rebuild after a rather strenuous job biking. Because no medication I've ever heard of causes these symptoms. Sure some of them are associated with weight gain, but gaining fat and losing muscle while exercising is not a common side effect of any medication I've ever heard of in a person that's exercising rigorously.

          6 or 7 hours of sleep isn't necessarily great, but it's within the standard range for people of her age.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by hedwards View Post
            That's not how medications work. The medications get blamed for this sort of thing, but there isn't anything you can put into a pill that will cause people to gain weight that aren't consuming more calories than they're burning and storing the excess.

            I've been on a number of medications over the years, and I have yet to come across one that was capable of violating the laws of thermodynamics. It also does a disservice to the OP as it gives the impression that medications will lead to an inevitable weight gain if she's one of those effected. And she's trying to take responsibility for whatever she might be doing to contribute. Now, if she does everything perfectly and still has problems, then might be the time to consider if there's something funky going on that's caused by the medication.
            What you are saying seems to be that if most people who take a particular medication end up putting on weight, that it's the fault of the all those people and has nothing to do with the drug, right? I would disagree that this is something that we should deliberately discount.

            The human body is not a closed system. It is a delicate biochemical system with myriad of interrelated subsystems that can be easily set out of kilter in many different ways by unintended consequences of medications.

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            • #7
              Eat more protein!!! Your current diet still seems to be below 100g protein a day.

              Also I personally gain weight on avocados and other plant-source fats versus egg yolks, butter, etc. Maybe you should replace the dried fruits with regular fruits and the avocado with homemade mayo and meats/eggs. Plus, avocados aren't more full of protein per amount of fat than cheese/milk...
              ------
              HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

              My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


              Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

              " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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              • #8
                I would actually advise against nuts. Nuts make me gain fat or stall my weightloss.
                ------
                HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

                " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                  What you are saying seems to be that if most people who take a particular medication end up putting on weight, that it's the fault of the all those people and has nothing to do with the drug, right? I would disagree that this is something that we should deliberately discount.

                  The human body is not a closed system. It is a delicate biochemical system with myriad of interrelated subsystems that can be easily set out of kilter in many different ways by unintended consequences of medications.
                  What I'm saying is that blaming the medication is not appropriate. It's like blaming the TV for obesity. The TV doesn't make anybody obese, but when people sit in front of it for hours on end snacking, they will become obese.

                  Medication itself isn't magic. It can't force people to sit down and cram their gullets until they're obese. It also can't magically conjure up calories out of thin air. It can improve a person's appetite though and if depression and an inability to enjoy food was keeping the weight in check, then you might see some weight gain. But that's not the pill, that's the lack of an appropriate diet plan and it would happen with any effective treatment plan.

                  What we have is a lot of warning labels on medications that claim possible weight gain. And we have doctors warning about it as well. The thing though, is that the mind is rather susceptible to suggestion. If you're expecting to gain weight when you take pills, it's likely to happen. The mind tends to make happen what it expects.

                  But, when all is said and done, blaming external factors is neither healthy nor helpful. Even in the best situation, it discourages patients from looking at ways of helping themselves. And the people telling patients that pills can cause weight gain are generally therapists, psychiatrists and other patients; in other words, people that aren't qualified to say that.

                  Also, realize that warning labels on medications aren't necessarily always based upon real risk. If one person in the study got a bruise from running into something, they have to list the possibility of bruising on the warning label. It doesn't necessarily mean that the medication caused the bruising, but out of the abundance of caution, they have to list it.

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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by hedwards View Post
                    What I'm saying is that blaming the medication is not appropriate. It's like blaming the TV for obesity. The TV doesn't make anybody obese, but when people sit in front of it for hours on end snacking, they will become obese.

                    Medication itself isn't magic. It can't force people to sit down and cram their gullets until they're obese. It also can't magically conjure up calories out of thin air. It can improve a person's appetite though and if depression and an inability to enjoy food was keeping the weight in check, then you might see some weight gain. But that's not the pill, that's the lack of an appropriate diet plan and it would happen with any effective treatment plan.

                    What we have is a lot of warning labels on medications that claim possible weight gain. And we have doctors warning about it as well. The thing though, is that the mind is rather susceptible to suggestion. If you're expecting to gain weight when you take pills, it's likely to happen. The mind tends to make happen what it expects.

                    But, when all is said and done, blaming external factors is neither healthy nor helpful. Even in the best situation, it discourages patients from looking at ways of helping themselves. And the people telling patients that pills can cause weight gain are generally therapists, psychiatrists and other patients; in other words, people that aren't qualified to say that.

                    Also, realize that warning labels on medications aren't necessarily always based upon real risk. If one person in the study got a bruise from running into something, they have to list the possibility of bruising on the warning label. It doesn't necessarily mean that the medication caused the bruising, but out of the abundance of caution, they have to list it.
                    TV's don't cause weight gain, couches do. But that's neither here nor there. Medications that interfere with metabolism and satiety signaling hormones can cause weight gain. Yes, through the mechanism of CICO.

                    I also don't think your characterization of how and when warnings are mandated on drugs is accurate.

                    It's not about blaming external factors, it's about acknowledging their contribution to a problem and deciding if they are worth continuing in light of their effects, or whether their unwanted effects can be worked around.
                    The Champagne of Beards

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by RichMahogany View Post
                      TV's don't cause weight gain, couches do. But that's neither here nor there. Medications that interfere with metabolism and satiety signaling hormones can cause weight gain. Yes, through the mechanism of CICO.

                      I also don't think your characterization of how and when warnings are mandated on drugs is accurate.

                      It's not about blaming external factors, it's about acknowledging their contribution to a problem and deciding if they are worth continuing in light of their effects, or whether their unwanted effects can be worked around.
                      Beat me to it.

                      +1

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                      • #12
                        Originally posted by fixie
                        hmmm, i might try and make mayo from olive oil, coconut oil is out of budget (as are most nuts, berries, all fish except smoked mackerel and tinned, in sunflower oil! i know, sardines)... with the protein though, how can i up that? i already take the whey for work and working out, and eat 2 eggs every day and feta also... thanks for the dried fruit advice, i can see if i can cut it or replace it with a banana (can't go around lugging 5 apples in the messenger bag though)...
                        You can eat more than 2 eggs.

                        Olive oil is fine, coconut oil is better since it is satuated fat. I actually made mine from melted butter and it turned into a mayo-whipped butter hybrid and is delicious.
                        ------
                        HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                        My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                        Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

                        " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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                        • #13
                          I think you'd be WAY better off eating cheese for protein (regardless of if its "paleo" or not) than sardines in rancid oil. If you were eating cheese before and doing fine, by all means, go back. My personal sob story about gaining fat/losing muscle tone after going paleo is similar. Eventually I realized it didn't matter if my food choices fit neatly into the diet trend du jour if it was causing me to eat more than I need or wasn't giving me the energy I needed for my activities I had to admit it wasn't working and do something different. For me, that meant listening to my body and cutting way back on meats and fats and eating more fresh and dried fruit and dairy. It's just a combination that satisfies me with less food. I was told that eating more fat and more protein would do that, and while that may be true for a lot of people, it just wasn't true for me. I'm a 34 year old female, ex vegan, fwiw.


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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by fixie
                            the listening to my body thing i find exetremely difficult, i don't know what its saying anymore, except for that it want to go vegan, which isn't really a good idea i guess... one of the reasons i quit eating cheese was because i get the same sensation with it i used to get with meat, so overpowering qua taste... maybe i should just eat way more veggs and fruit...
                            In my personal experience... Unless I am at an extreme caloric deficit I would gain fat on a diet that is almost all veggies/fruit. Maybe you can accomplish that by going grainfree-Vegan, most likely not. You need some sort of animal source for protein.

                            Try eating more animal/protein, replace dried with fresh fruit, stay off fattening types of fats like avocado/nuts (replace with butter and eggs) and I bet you will become leaner in no time.
                            ------
                            HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                            My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                            Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

                            " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by fixie
                              tnx for sharing your experiences, turqoise!

                              stay off fattening types of fats like avocado/nuts (replace with butter and eggs)

                              why are the avocado's not good though?
                              Tons of omega 6 fatty acids. Inflammation. Try eating only animal fats so you get less of omega 6 in general. Also, for some reason I find animal fats satiate me way more than plant fats. I can eat a whole tub of cashews but if you put a fatty slab of meat or eggs scrambled in butter in front of me, I get full fast.
                              ------
                              HCLF: lean red meat, eggs, low-fat dairy, bone broth/gelatin, fruits, seafood, liver, small amount of starch (oatmeal, white rice, potatoes, carrots), small amount of saturated fat (butter/ghee/coconut/dark chocolate/cheese).

                              My Journal: gelatin experiments, vanity pictures, law school rants, recipe links


                              Food blog: GELATIN and BONE BROTH recipes

                              " The best things in life are free and the 2nd best are expensive!" - Coco Chanel

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