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  • #31
    HealthyLongevity said:

    Even if you do not particularly like the wording of my post, I highly recommend taking a look at the references. I have cited dozens of relevant studies that all too often go ignored.
    Here's the real problem. You are throwing studies at a group that proved paleo (Primal Blueprint) works one person at a time. N=1 trumps all the studies.

    I could find dozens of studies on any health subject, and quickly find dozens more to dispute those claims. When thousands of people try it for themselves and it works, studies are mostly meaningless.

    I, for instance, six years ago at age 42, had fatty liver disease, high bp, high cholesterol, high trigs, gout, and high a1c/FBG. 2 years of advice to eat healthy whole grains, lean chicken, and exercise more did absolutely nothing for me--except ensure my prescription of statins would never end.

    After 6 months of Mark Sisson's Primal Blueprint, I was off all meds, all markers were normal, fatty liver cured, gout never returned. My LDL is still a bit high which worries my doctor, but not me!

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    • #32
      Good work!

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      • #33
        Healthy Longevity:

        How about this -- in 1999, I got really interested in veganism. I spent a year researching veganism and it's relevant science, and then took the plunge. During my time as a vegan, I went soy free (since I was soy sensitive), and moved towards a mostly raw diet.

        In 2001, my husband discovered the Weston A Price Foundation. There is a *lot* of science there, including science about soy, which is one of the reasons I decided not to eat it except for traditionally processed stuff, which I picked up from a local asian market that was owned by an "auntie" of mine (it's amazing the people who take you under their wing when you just ask nice questions) and didn't eat often anyway. My husband went WAPF diet, but since we didn't bake the breads, it was more like a paleo version.

        In 2005-6, I became increasingly unhealthy with very low cholesterol. After running down many avenues (vegan), I ultimately decided to add in animal products (eggs, dairy). I used dairy sparingly because I'm sensitive to dairy.

        In 2010, my husband developed a gut issue with our move to a more damp location. His naturopath recommended that he go grain-free. That's when we discovered paleo. Before making the switch, we did *a lot* ofnutritional research -- something that we enjoy doing.

        The PB also includes scientific resources to support it's assertions.

        The reason that I write all of this is because there is an underlying assumption that anyone who is living different from you and/or disagrees with your argument is either A. uneducated in general, or B. unwilling to read your research and/or hasn't read that research (or similar) before.

        The reality is that I -- and many people like me -- are very interested in health and well being and do a lot of reading on the subject, including reading scientific studies *themselves* not just articles that reference scientific studies. We learn how to read them, what "red flags" to look for in terms of good/viable studies, and so on.

        Many of us have been vegan or vegetarian for a time, and some of us have even been raw foodists.

        And yet, in the end, we end up over here, getting articles like "for your consideration!" as if we haven't considered this information and it'll blow our minds, and then "you obviously didn't read" or "please take my references seriously" -- as if we didn't or don't do these things in general.

        the truth is, that's insulting.

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        • #34
          Yeah, I had a doctorate level nutrition course with instructor who was essentially a vegetarian/vegan proponent. To his credit he always advised a piece of meat about the size of a deck of cards each week to avoid deficiencies associated with such a diet. Point being I've seen all the "science" you could possibly imagine to promote such a lifestyle. I've tried it myself. I later researched, as zoe did, WAPF, paleo, and finally ended up with Primal.... which I would define as Paleo + WAPF - Grains and Legumes = Primal All that it comes down to is at this point and time Primal, in my opinion, offers the best evidence both biochemically as laid out by laz, and ancestrally as laid out by.... well everyone. And its absolutely what I feel best on. So I think I'll keep it up, and I know I will continue feeding my kids this way.

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          • #35
            @Lazarus,

            Your comments are typical of the type of criticism I often receive – demanding references without providing any for your many claims.

            First of all I do not agree with the term the “Asian Paradox”- this was Sisson’s term. This suggests that many culture outside of Asia have not traditionally thrived on carbohydrate rich diets which is certainly not the case. The findings from the China Study and dietary habits during WWII are not the only or even the primary lines of evidence for the conclusions I have made. I am under the impression that you are trying to downplay my posts by suggesting that I did not cite these other lines of evidence, such as the findings from hundreds of randomized controlled trials.

            Many of your statements are oversimplifications, such as the assertion that adding modest amounts of sugar to a starchy diet causing metabolic havoc. As I pointed out in my post, the Bedouins ate a starchy diet (from full-grain wheat) with modest to high amounts of added sugar and many of the females were not active, yet virtually the entire population was very lean and free of diabetes.

            The Kuna Indians from Panama who also consume a starchy diet that is relatively rich in fruit and added sugar have also been observed to by quite slim.
            Hypertension, the Kuna, and the epide... [J Cardiovasc Pharmacol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI

            Kempner’s rice-fruit diet which was based on rice, fruit, fruit juice and sugar resulted in weight loss in most patients.
            DIETARY TREATMENT OF HYPERTENSION. CLINICAL AND METABOLIC STUDIES OF PATIENTS ON THE RICE-FRUIT DIET

            In the Women’s Health Initiative the control group who were advised to lower fat intake significantly increased the intake of sugar and showed trends towards lower body weight and waist circumference. If anything there was a slight trend towards a lower risk of diabetes in the control group.
            Low-fat dietary pattern and lipoprotein risk factors: the Women's Health Initiative Dietary Modification Trial

            Of course this is not to suggest that sugar is a health food, but does cast doubt on the suggestion that a starchy diet with small to modest amounts of added sugar will necessarily result in metabolic havoc even when caloric balance is maintained.

            The association between LDL cholesterol and coronary heart disease cannot simply be explained as an innocent bystander of metabolic syndrome. Our current understanding of this topic is not simply based on cohort studies as you seem to be implying. Randomized controlled trials and mendelian randomization studies have clearly demonstrated that the association is causal. See references no. 24-30 in my post for references.

            As I stated:
            A meta-analysis of 108 lipid intervention trials with a mean follow-up of only three years found that for each 10 mg/dl (0.26 mmol/l) reduction in LDL cholesterol, coronary heart disease mortality and all-cause mortality decreased by 7.2% and 4.4% respectively, independent of HDL cholesterol, triglycerides and non-lipid effects of specific interventions.27 Comparatively, a meta-analysis of mendelian randomization studies with over 312,000 individuals found that inheriting any of nine studied genetic variants that modify LDL cholesterol concentrations predicted a 54.5% lower risk of coronary heart disease for each 39 mg/dl (1 mmol/l) reduction in LDL cholesterol maintained over the period of a lifetime, independent of other major risk factors.

            You have seen many studies that show high cholesterol to be good? Did these studies control for reverse causation and regression dilution bias? It wouldn’t be all difficult to cite studies suggesting certain benefits of smoking- just look up the work of Weston A. Price Foundation honorary member William Douglas, aka Doctor Tobacco who seems to think that smoking is the best thing since sliced bread.


            @Otzi

            N=1 trumps all the studies? Is this some sort of joke? It appears that some people here are trying to extrapolate simply feeling healthy at the moment to long-term health. If studies are of little importance how is one able to tell whether a certain way of living will not increase the risk of cancer which can take many decades to develop? This just seems like wishful thinking.
            Last edited by Healthy Longevity; 08-19-2013, 08:51 AM.

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            • #36
              I'm so confused as to your motives here HL....

              I had never even heard of "the diet doctor" till you made a post, so I find nothing of use in you refuting something I haven't even based any decisions on. As to Denise.... again, not where I garner my info, although I at least recognize this person.

              So you are what? Whats the point of your little escapade into Primal territory? To expose the evils of eating in a way that is sustainable, consistent with ancestral health, and seems to lead to better lab markers and a general feeling of well being?

              I can remember Jaminet stating in his book that the 2006 Nurse's Health Study showed that although the "heart healthy" higher carb and lower fat group smoked less and exercised more their chance of heart attack was still 42% higher than that of the lower carbohydrate group for instance.

              Most round here subscribe to the quality of carbs arbument though, so maybe your fighting your own shadow?

              And as to your recent studies.... what are you trying to prove?
              Hypertension, the Kuna, and the epide... [J Cardiovasc Pharmacol. 2006] - PubMed - NCBI .... so "The Kuna in Ailigandi reported consuming a 10-fold higher amount of cocoa-containing beverages, 4 times the amount of fish, and twice the amount of fruit".... So eat A LOT more cocoa, a great deal more fish, and a bit more fruit is the conclusion? Oooooooookay

              Next we have a study from 1950 that I'd rather not take the time to read as much has been done since then.

              Well best of luck to you in your fruitarian experiments .

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              • #37
                Healthy Longevity, the blog, is quite a testament to veganism. The blog on eggs was pure gold! Cracking Down on Eggs and Cholesterol | Healthy Longevity Thanks for telling me that cholesterol in eggs will clog my arteries!

                The other day, I was at the drive-thru of McDonald's when a whole caravan of Bedouins came through, there wasn't an apple pie left when they were done! But, boy were they lean and fit! Oh, wait--Bedouins don't normally eat western crap food. They must have been Kunas (or maybe Inuits) hard to tell.

                So far as I can tell, Healthy Longevity, the person, simply has a gripe against meat-eaters and is taking it out on Mark Sisson. Even Mark will admit that a vegan lifestyle can be very healthy and has good instructions on how to pull it off: My Escape from Vegan Island | Mark's Daily Apple If I remember right, his wife and a kid or two are vegan.


                So, what's the point? A vegan diet with enough protein is probably healthy, same as following Primal Blueprint, when they have one thing in common: near complete avoidance of refined sugar, grain, and vegetable oil.

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                • #38
                  If eating primal is going to kill me, at least I'll die looking sexy, feeling great, and having tons of energy. I never knew killing myself slowly would feel so good.

                  Just think I could be eating a healthy vegetarian diet again while suffering from chronic pain and fatigue, being over weight, feeling absolutely horrible. Gosh, I'm so misguided. Why did I ever start eating primal?! *rolls eyes*
                  Height: 5'2"
                  Starting weight: 180lbs
                  Current weight 130lbs

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                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Nix View Post
                    If eating primal is going to kill me, at least I'll die looking sexy, feeling great, and having tons of energy. I never knew killing myself slowly would feel so good.

                    Just think I could be eating a healthy vegetarian diet again while suffering from chronic pain and fatigue, being over weight, feeling absolutely horrible. Gosh, I'm so misguided. Why did I ever start eating primal?! *rolls eyes*
                    You'd especially enjoy those vegan Snickers Bars, Twinkies, and cauliflower fried in Canola...and mounds and mounds of White Wonder bread smeared with margarine--just like the Bedouins!

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                    • #40
                      White Wonder bread smeared with margarine
                      I almost threw up in my mouth.
                      "Right is right, even if no one is doing it; wrong is wrong, even if everyone is doing it." - St. Augustine

                      B*tch-lite

                      Who says back fat is a bad thing? Maybe on a hairy guy at the beach, but not on a crab.

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                      • #41
                        "for each 10 mg/dl (0.26 mmol/l) reduction in LDL cholesterol, coronary heart disease mortality and all-cause mortality decreased by 7.2% and 4.4% respectively, independent of HDL cholesterol, triglycerides and non-lipid effects of specific interventions"

                        Oh boy....it's like I'm in school all over again.

                        I do not have the time or energy to write back to this CW psuedo-science.....I will just say that there are an overwhelming number of endocrinologists that DO believe that isolating LDL, especially the way they were done in these dinosaur studies, has very little value.

                        If one were to use VAP cholesterol tests, targeting pattern A vs B, trigly, HbA1c, and using them to create a picture of overall metabolic health, and THEN link it to heart disease, you would have much a more convincing study. If you believe that old fashioned "whole lipo" studies, using sliding scales for gender/age, not taking into account other parameters of health, and totally ignoring the past 15 years of research into more advanced lipoproteins; if you believe this is strong evidence, I don't know what to do for you.

                        Understand that I am a medical doctor and actually have to treat people, or more so advise them, on how to turn around what is typically fairly advanced metabolic disease....the way I see it, I have two options:

                        1) Listen to your ilk, and recommend a DASH or Dean Ornish style diet....when I do this, and other docs do it, you will find that your compliance rate is in the single digits as far as meaningful turn around. (There's a reason Ornish runs a camp, it's because in the real world, no chance) Attempting to take someone on the SAD (standard American diet) and have them suddenly eat alfalfa sprouts with tomato paste as dinner is a recipe for failure....and failure with people as sick as I deal with, usually 20-30 year diabetics with retinas bleeding, severe systemic neuropathy, is death.

                        If I AM effective in doing this, the typical result is NOT your study-driven, government supported, happy-place. Often I will see strong drops in cholesterol, but overall HDL/LDL, pattern A vs B, all of it remains only slightly improved....the downside is that HbA1c (which is usually a big reason they are seeing me) has very little improvement, and their overall metabolic health goes from being a trainwreck to a slightly slower-motion trainwreck....and this is IF they comply.

                        The reason is that in real people, they turn into "breadatarians" when you try to go vegan-ish on them. Heavy in processed flour, heavy in all kinds of chemistry set food we don't understand well, etc. Overall you end up only marginally improving their situation. This is not my opinion....this is the opinion of most doctors that have actually had to help someone, rather than theorize over it.

                        2) When I suggest moving towards paleo, or a primal-ish diet higher in carbs than most on here eat, however lower in fat, I see pretty amazing improvement. I do keep cholesterol down, but the major goal is improvement in trigly, Hba1c, and Pattern ratios. I have found that the best way to do this is to explain that we are not fighting numbers on a panel or pounds on a scale; we are fighting metabolic syndrome....make no mistake here....metabolic syndrome is what kills you, not your cholesterol numbers. If you believe otherwise, I suggest speaking to a cardiologist that has read something in medicine in the past 20 years.

                        When I suggest this route, or more exactly my dietician does, I get incredible compliance....and my end result, no matter your studies I had to read in first year of med school, is MUCH better than the docs that recommend the above. I often get slightly reduced cholesterol numbers (not always, but many of my pts were very sick), and the overall metabolic health is drastically better. I have taken people, dozens of them, from Hba1c's of 12% (death is just setting up shop outside your door at that point) to 6% (most of their PCPs take them off meds here) in less than 6 months, with about an 85% success rate. That is not a cohort study or a PubMed reference, those are real people walking around today that might not be if it weren't for my advice.

                        There isn't much in this area you can show me I haven't seen. I have read that study I quoted above at least 3-4 times in my life, and the faults in it could fill a book, just ONE of them....when docs that recommend your pie in the sky plan start to succeed more than my patients, I will listen. Until then, not so much.
                        "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                        • #42
                          Laz, I did not know you were a doctor. Are you a GP or a specialist?

                          M.

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                          • #43
                            I am an ophthalmologist, specializing in diabetic retinal surgery....downside is that most of their PCP's view an appointment with me as a pretty alarming thing, so through my practice I have a contracted out dietician twice a week. It lets me treat both sides to the disease and adds a lot of referrals to my books
                            "The soul that does not attempt flight; does not notice its chains."

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                            • #44
                              Originally posted by TheyCallMeLazarus View Post
                              recommend a DASH or Dean Ornish style diet....when I do this, and other docs do it, you will find that your compliance rate is in the single digits
                              Ya, "whole food" diet sounds really sensible to most people but there's a sharp divide once we include beef, eggs, and butter. Compliance is king so we should define our excluded categories carefully and not ban them absent reason.

                              My vegan housemates were lovely folks but the way they leered pornographically at my roasted turkeys and brie wheels suggested a certain tension. The one I knew best definitely shifted over time from tabbouleh and lentils to more sausage substitutes and mountains of fried snacks.
                              37//6'3"/185

                              My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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                              • #45
                                I'll admit I had to Google that one. Well, you have med school so that's a plus.

                                M.

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