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Primal with MOAR Peat: Food & Hormone Discussion (Ray Peat Followers)

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  • I think the iron overload is not from animal products so much as it is from iron fortified products and multivitamins.

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    • Originally posted by Zach View Post
      I think the iron overload is not from animal products so much as it is from iron fortified products and multivitamins.
      That would make sense, so shouldn't be an issue for eaters of real food.

      Btw, I'm finding this Peat discussion interesting. I think throwing ones self soley into one camp is a mistake, picking relevant bits from a number of sources makes sense.

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      • Is is better to eat fruit and no starch? I've noticed that starch really increases my appetite. But fruit limits itself. I'm curious why this is.

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        • Originally posted by girlhk View Post
          Is is better to eat fruit and no starch? I've noticed that starch really increases my appetite. But fruit limits itself. I'm curious why this is.
          Starches spikes your blood sugar more, and people often get hunger pangs when it fall down quickly! The carb roller coaster and all that...
          "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

          - Schopenhauer

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          • Originally posted by girlhk View Post
            Is is better to eat fruit and no starch? I've noticed that starch really increases my appetite. But fruit limits itself. I'm curious why this is.
            Eating good amount of fruit keeps me full on relatively small amount of calories. Not that I advocate fruitarianism, but I certainly now understand how it can be sustainable in terms of satiety.
            Last edited by Graycat; 08-17-2013, 02:21 PM.

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            • Originally posted by girlhk View Post
              Is is better to eat fruit and no starch? I've noticed that starch really increases my appetite. But fruit limits itself. I'm curious why this is.
              Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
              Starches spikes your blood sugar more, and people often get hunger pangs when it fall down quickly! The carb roller coaster and all that...
              I definitely notice that too, Girlhk. Since cutting out starch my appetite is regulated for the first time since I can remember. I agree with Gorbag that it's a Blood Sug thing. Mine is pretty unstable and I have hypoglycaemic tendencies. If I drink even a glass of red wine I can't sleep for shit because of hypoglycaemic insomnia (Peat also has written that red wine can induce hypoglecimia).

              BAck to Ferritin!

              It's obvious that too much is bad, and there's debate about what the optimal range is, but too little can't be good either. This is one of the areas where I'd be interested in Peat expanding his research.

              On a personal level, it seems to be that my body doesn't retain ferritin, because when I don't eat iron rich food, I don't menstruate, and when I do, I menstruate every two weeks. I did some research and it transpires that progesterone is responsible for retaining ferreting in the uterus! So if your progesterone is low, you're not going to be able to build up your womb lining, leading to frequent menstruation, or infertility, or low ferritin, or all of them.

              the multisubunit iron-binding protein ferritin, as being regulated by progesterone in the uterus.
              From: Ferritin heavy chain is a progesterone-inducib... [Endocrinology. 1995] - PubMed - NCBI

              Originally posted by BestBetter View Post
              YogaBare, something you said earlier in the thread made me think of something else 'Peat' related that my husband has been experimenting on with him. After an endless amount of testing just got diagnosed with IBS-D. It seems like it's triggered by certain foods, but not always, and sometimes has nothing to do with food at all. We just realized that it's very likely he has a double issue: histamine intolerance (all the foods/drinks he has trouble with are usually high in histamine and now that he's supplementing with the enzyme Histame he seems much better) but also SEROTONIN.

              I read to him a couple of articles Peat wrote about issues with high Serotonin, and that led him on a quest to research the issue in medical journals to find out more. He's convinced this is a major issue for him, and he's now trying to avoiding foods high in tryptophan (mainly muscle meats, eggs, cheese) since it gets converted into Serotonin and supplementing with collagen and gelatin and BCAA (which compete with tryptophan and prevent much of it from binding). Even though he just started, already his ADD and depressive issues are improving, as is his IBS. Serotonin has an inverse relationship with Dopamine (his is way too low, which results in the ADD and mood issues).

              Anyway, the reason I thought of this after reading your post below is that Serotonin and Estrogen are very closely linked; Serotonin causes an increase in Estrogen. (In fact, SSRI antidepressants increase circulating Serotonin are known for reducing libido, by increasing Estrogen and lowering Testosterone).

              Maybe Serotonin could be a factor in your Estrogen dominance?
              I actually got my Serotonin checked and it was 160. The CW range stipulates that it should not be more than 300ish for women, so based on that I'm fine, but Peat thinks it should be lower. Sooo. Idk. I would well believe I have issues with it since I have gut issues too, but I don't quite understand the link between them. Serotonin in general seems to be one of those hormones that isn't too well understood...

              I got my testosterone checked too and it was bang on in the middle of the normal range.
              Last edited by YogaBare; 08-17-2013, 03:24 PM.
              "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

              In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

              - Ray Peat

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              • Originally posted by Graycat View Post
                Eating good amount of fruit keeps me full on relatively small amount of calories. Not that I advocate fruitarianism, but I certainly now understand how it can be sustainable in terms of satiety.
                When I have a starch heavy or starch + fruit heavy dinner, I wake up hungry. But I don't think it's true hunger, because once I drink black coffee, the hunger pangs go away.

                Okay, fruits are expensive, even the local ones! One 10 lb bag of rice costs $10 and lasts a whole month. $10 of fruits = 1 pineapple, 1 watermelon, a few soursops, a few mangoes. That lasts a few days only.

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                • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                  BAck to Ferritin!

                  It's obvious that too much is bad, and there's debate about what the optimal range is, but too little can't be good either. This is one of the areas where I'd be interested in Peat expanding his research.

                  On a personal level, it seems to be that my body doesn't retain ferritin, because when I don't eat iron rich food, I don't menstruate, and when I do, I menstruate every two weeks. I did some research and it transpires that progesterone is responsible for retaining ferreting in the uterus! So if your progesterone is low, you're not going to be able to build up your womb lining, leading to frequent menstruation, or infertility, or low ferritin, or all of them.

                  Progesterone deficiency seems to be very common in women. I used to frequent fertility boards a few years ago trying to conceive, and a top cause for trouble conceiving is low progesterone.

                  If you chart your cycles, a short luteal phase (from ovulation to first day of period when lining is shed) indicates low progesterone. One can't get sustain pregnancy with short luteal phase because the uterine lining doesn't get thick enough.

                  Of course low progesterone situation goes undetected until a women actually tries to conceive and charts her cycles.

                  This is all very interesting...

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                  • What fascinates me is how all of these things seem to fit together, Iron, progresterone, serotonin, thyroid etc, etc.
                    .
                    Progesterone is something I am lacking in, since I am peri-menopausal and cycles have become longer and more erratic.

                    I've only been eating this way for a very short time. The one thing I do notice is my moods are more even, I feel more relaxed.

                    Im not as hungry, though I am craving eggs and I have never craved those ever before. Cravings were always sugar or starch. I have realised that when I eat starch, Its the beginning of continual grazing.

                    My sleep is the worst thing of all. Eventhough I have no trouble getting to sleep, I cannot stay asleep. I'm hoping that will improve, but not sure how long that will take.

                    This is a great thread,

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                    • Originally posted by girlhk View Post
                      Progesterone deficiency seems to be very common in women. I used to frequent fertility boards a few years ago trying to conceive, and a top cause for trouble conceiving is low progesterone.

                      If you chart your cycles, a short luteal phase (from ovulation to first day of period when lining is shed) indicates low progesterone. One can't get sustain pregnancy with short luteal phase because the uterine lining doesn't get thick enough.

                      Of course low progesterone situation goes undetected until a women actually tries to conceive and charts her cycles.

                      This is all very interesting...
                      Originally posted by Slinkykitty View Post
                      What fascinates me is how all of these things seem to fit together, Iron, progresterone, serotonin, thyroid etc, etc.
                      Everything is connected...


                      Originally posted by Slinkykitty View Post
                      I've only been eating this way for a very short time. The one thing I do notice is my moods are more even, I feel more relaxed.

                      Im not as hungry, though I am craving eggs and I have never craved those ever before. Cravings were always sugar or starch. I have realised that when I eat starch, Its the beginning of continual grazing.

                      My sleep is the worst thing of all. Eventhough I have no trouble getting to sleep, I cannot stay asleep. I'm hoping that will improve, but not sure how long that will take.

                      This is a great thread,
                      That's great slinky!

                      Tell me about your sleep - how long has it been bad for? I've had insomnia for a long, long time - it's improved significantly since I went on a high carb, high protein diet. I think in my case it was intimately linked to blood sugar.

                      A hot drink with sugar and gelatine before bed does wonders
                      "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

                      In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

                      - Ray Peat

                      Comment


                      • Originally posted by YogaBare View Post
                        Everything is connected...




                        That's great slinky!

                        Tell me about your sleep - how long has it been bad for? I've had insomnia for a long, long time - it's improved significantly since I went on a high carb, high protein diet. I think in my case it was intimately linked to blood sugar.

                        A hot drink with sugar and gelatine before bed does wonders
                        My Sleep UGHH. I cannot remember the last time I slept through the night. It must be over 20 years ago.
                        I do not have any trouble falling asleep, its the staying asleep that is the problem.
                        I go to bed at about 9pm and get up at about 5:30am.
                        During the night I wake up multiple times, the least would be about 3 times, the most up to about 10 times. Sometimes I have to go the bathroom but other times not, sometimes I wake up briefly and go back to sleep. Other times It takes about an hour to go back to sleep. I dont wake up with pounding heart or any adrenalin type responses, I just wake up.

                        The only good thing is that I haven't had nightmares for a while, ( have a long history of those as well as night terrors) . however my sleep is just awful.

                        I have tried Gelatin before bed, I have also tried a spoonful of honey with salt, and neither have changed anything. Though I'm not sure if it takes time or if those things are supposed to work straight away.

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                        • Originally posted by thriveful View Post
                          I'd be interested on why ferritin is an issue in modem life, from the perspective of high levels requiring blood donation. Are people with high levels just outliers, or is something in modern life/diet driving this.

                          If we assume/agree that eating reasonable amounts of red meat is the norm for humans, surely 'extreme' measures such as blood donation should be unnecessary?

                          I haven't even started looking into this yet, but interested in some views
                          I'm coming to think that eating A LOT of meat is actually not natural for humans at all. I've been watching a lot of survival shows lately, and what is striking is no matter what show it is, getting a lot of meat does not happen too often. Usually, there is a lot of gathering of fruits and plants and tubers, with some fish, insects, a small bird or rodent (which yields very little meat and often is shared). Only rarely does a big kill happen, which is followed by a day (or a few) of gorging on meat, and then not so much for quite a while.

                          Eating big portions of meat on a daily basis is mainly possible with the advent of the supermarket, and while I'm a firm believer that animal protein and fat are critical, I don't think we are designed to be eating a huge portion of them with every meal. Lately, I've reduced my meat intake by a lot (though I still try to have a very small amount with most meals, which can even be something as little as one spoonful of gelatin mixed into some jam or oatmeal, or rice cooked in bone broth, or a few bites of liver) and then having a bigger serving of muscle meat once or twice a week. and my body seems to be really happy with this. I'm not losing muscle, either (In fact, I think I gained some muscle eating this way while doing a lot of outdoor labor).

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                          • I'm not sure survival shows are a great indication of what actual hunter gatherers ate...

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                            • Originally posted by lea View Post
                              I'm not sure survival shows are a great indication of what actual hunter gatherers ate...
                              Well, in the show 'Beyond Survival' for example, in each episode Les Stroud lives for several weeks with an indigenous group of people still practicing their traditional way of life. I think these people are the epitome of 'paleo' living and no, they don't gorge themselves on meat three times a day. Some eat a single meal a day, if they are lucky, and it is not always meat.

                              People can argue till they're blue in the face about what is or isn't paleo. Ultimately, it's up to each individual to experiment, decide what makes sense, and how they feel best. I, personally, feel better eating less meat, and eating the way I am now makes a lot more sense to me (and feels better mentally and physically) than what I was doing when I was trying to be 'paleo' or 'primal'.
                              Last edited by BestBetter; 08-18-2013, 02:28 PM.

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                              • Originally posted by BestBetter View Post

                                Eating big portions of meat on a daily basis is mainly possible with the advent of the supermarket, and while I'm a firm believer that animal protein and fat are critical, I don't think we are designed to be eating a huge portion of them with every meal. Lately, I've reduced my meat intake by a lot (though I still try to have a very small amount with most meals, which can even be something as little as one spoonful of gelatin mixed into some jam or oatmeal, or rice cooked in bone broth, or a few bites of liver) and then having a bigger serving of muscle meat once or twice a week. and my body seems to be really happy with this.
                                What did you replace all that meat with?

                                My eating habits have shifted like this as well. Gorge on meat once a week, and find myself not really caring for meat anymore.
                                Last edited by girlhk; 08-18-2013, 07:40 PM. Reason: spelling

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