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Primal with MOAR Peat: Food & Hormone Discussion (Ray Peat Followers)

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  • I don't do the oj + milk recommendations. I only follow the higher fruit/dairy, lower PUFA, balance muscle meat with gelatin guidelines...

    I don't drink milk much... Unless I am at Starbucks for a latte. My dairy is mostly cottage cheese.


    I think gray drinks oj and milk a lot, but mostly because she likes it. I don't think you need to worry about implementing oj+milk specifically down to the ounce.
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    • I'm just curious how he came up with the 2 quarts milk and 1 quart o.j. and if I can see any benefit from the smaller quantities. I'm going to get some gelatin next time I go to the store to balance out the aminos with the muscle meats. Limiting chicken, pork and nuts will be difficult, but I can get around that one. More fruit is one of the best things I like about Peat's recommendations. I'm going to make more fruit salads and carrot salads to eat daily.

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      • Someone correct me if i am wrong, but I think he makes his recs on what allows you to get the most benefits from the most limited diet/budget.

        Milk can be substituted with other dairy... Oj can be substituted with other fruits high in the same nutrients.
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        • Decoski, I've wondered the same about the quantities of milk and OJ. Drinking OJ in those amounts would be quite expensive. I think you'd have to eat a lot of fruit to get the equivalent amount.

          I just wonder if you have to consume those amounts to see thyroid improvements. If so I may as well forget it cause there is no way I can consume that much dairy and fruit.
          Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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          • Originally posted by Urban Forager View Post
            Decoski, I've wondered the same about the quantities of milk and OJ. Drinking OJ in those amounts would be quite expensive. I think you'd have to eat a lot of fruit to get the equivalent amount.

            I just wonder if you have to consume those amounts to see thyroid improvements. If so I may as well forget it cause there is no way I can consume that much dairy and fruit.
            Nah. I have seen thyroid improvements (maintenance cals went from 1600 to 2100-2200 and it isn't just bc I gained a ton of muscle) without those implementations. I eat bananas and frozen mangoes for fruit... Cottage cheese/kefir/Greek yogurt for dairy.
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            • Originally posted by TQP View Post
              Nah. I have seen thyroid improvements (maintenance cals went from 1600 to 2100-2200 and it isn't just bc I gained a ton of muscle) without those implementations. I eat bananas and frozen mangoes for fruit... Cottage cheese/kefir/Greek yogurt for dairy.
              Mmmm mangoes. I haven't eaten those after being duped into low carb by Taubes and others, but I'm putting them back in my smoothies after reading Peat's articles.

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              • Originally posted by TheChokingGame View Post
                Many natural sources of PUFA are coupled with vitamin e, which is protective (I think one theory is that vitamin e somehow 'saturates' the unsaturated fats, but I can't remember if this was ever proven), there are some other nutrients which also change the way the body handles them. The industrial oils are definitely a different animal.

                Peat actually recommends most fish/seafood, salmon is the only one I've explicitly heard him caution against, though I'm sure there may be others with high PUFA content. Olives have more MUFA and are only about 10% PUFA.
                I thought that research determined supplemental vitamin E causes cancer. I'll hold off on the vitamin E recommendation until I learn more...

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                • Originally posted by TheChokingGame View Post
                  Many natural sources of PUFA are coupled with vitamin e, which is protective (I think one theory is that vitamin e somehow 'saturates' the unsaturated fats, but I can't remember if this was ever proven), there are some other nutrients which also change the way the body handles them. The industrial oils are definitely a different animal.

                  Peat actually recommends most fish/seafood, salmon is the only one I've explicitly heard him caution against, though I'm sure there may be others with high PUFA content. Olives have more MUFA and are only about 10% PUFA.
                  So in that case, are nuts/avo/olives ok in moderation on peat?

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                  • Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
                    So in that case, are nuts/avo/olives ok in moderation on peat?
                    No...lol.

                    If you want to eat nuts eat it. I have some Jif (1-2 T a week) and sometimes less PUFA-y pb (peanut flour + coconut oil).

                    Just don't call it peat-approved.
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                    • Are you sure about this? I used to eat a average of 2500-3000 calories when lifting versus my current 1800 when not lifting at all.

                      Edit: oops. Meant to quote tqp up there about maintenance calories due to proposed increase in thyroid function.

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                      • Originally posted by sakura_girl View Post
                        Are you sure about this? I used to eat a average of 2500-3000 calories when lifting versus my current 1800 when not lifting at all.

                        Sent from my SCH-I535 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app
                        Both of those numbers are with me doing a significant amount of exercise, but they aren't accounted for (meaning...I need actually more than that to maintain right now since I exercise on top of basic metabolic functions). I was just saying NOW I have more muscle mass.
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                        • Originally posted by TQP View Post
                          No...lol.

                          If you want to eat nuts eat it. I have some Jif (1-2 T a week) and sometimes less PUFA-y pb (peanut flour + coconut oil).

                          Just don't call it peat-approved.
                          Just can't give up my full fat greek yogurt + banana + pb + cocoa + dried coconut=drool.....
                          I'm not against Peat, although some parts of it are hard to understand. I agree I like the Peat WOE, it's just probably not sustainable for me long-term to live on fruit + dairy + red meat. I'm thinking I'll have Peat-day carb refeeds, when I can binge on fruit & dairy:P.
                          However, I am wondering-I've heard that starch is typically better on carb refeeds than sugar, which goes straight to the liver, to refuel glycogen in muscles after active days. I know Peat's ideas are directed more towards reducing inflammation, etc rather than "building mass", but just wondering if sugar is just as effective to build muscle if it bypasses that pathway to muscles?

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                          • Re high fat: it's not that hard dude. Your taste buds will adapt to lower fat if you keep eating so, just like your taste buds had to adapt to eating primally. The less fat you eat the less fat you crave.



                            Re workout days:

                            I think you're a bit confused. Starch is still broken down into sugar rapidly in the body (starting with the enzymes in your saliva), but into glucose instead of fructose. Fruit is a mix of fructose/glucose...and fructose is what goes straight to the liver.




                            Carb for carb refeeds (spiking blood sugar) vs carb for "building muscle" (replenishing glycogen stores) are two different concepts.

                            The reason starches are recommended for refeeds is in the context of the person eating mostly low carb... so a huge blood sugar spike (glucose does this; fructose does not) is good to offset the fact that the other days the person is low carbing. That doesn't really matter if like most peaters, you eat mostly high carb all the time.

                            The reason mayyyybe glucose sources are better than fructose for muscle glycogen replenishing is because glucose tends to be stored as muscle glycogen. However, fruits have glucose too...they just also have fructose. You shouldn't have to worry about glucose vs. fructose on a lifting day for the purposes of glycogen replenishing since you'll get plenty of glucose from fruit OR starches to do so if you're eating like 300+g of carbs.

                            Long story short: You're overthinking this. Just eat carbs post-workout. The more important thing post-workout to build muscle is tons of protein, gelatin, and adequate cholesterol. I usually eat my red meat meals post-workout...and I try to eat at least one egg for cholesterol.

                            I eat mainly fruit because starches tend to make me crash energy-wise when I have too much of it. Also, too much rice = I get fluffy. I haven't gotten so on fruit and lower fat, no matter HOW much fruit I eat (I might not LOSE weight if I eat too much fruit...but I definitely don't gain). That just doesn't happen for starch sources.
                            Last edited by TQP; 04-13-2014, 12:08 AM.
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                            • Mmm now I wanna latte. The downside to checking out interesting threads without a nearby coffeehouse.

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                              • Originally posted by Alfi56 View Post
                                So in that case, are nuts/avo/olives ok in moderation on peat?
                                Olives and olive oil can be okay in small amounts, he doesn't especially like avocado (his most prominent quote about them is that they can be toxic to the liver) though you could certainly do a lot worse for food choice, and nuts I think he has the most issues with (in the case of nuts it's not just because of PUFA, I think there are some other toxins/anti-nutrients) and probably wouldn't recommend at all.

                                If you're interested in Peat (and I don't mean just to follow his recommendations, even if you're just curious about what he has to say and why), I really recommend listening to some of his interviews. There's a site, FunctionalPS I think, which has a big master list with dozens of them, any online search should bring the page up pretty easily.

                                I like the Politics and Science ones the best, I just listened to another one of them yesterday (Fats), it provides a lot of context for his ideas and why some seem so outlandish.

                                If you're at all interested in the far reaching, shady influence of industry on food and health for the last 100 or so years, Peat is one of the best people to listen to. He's been working in the field for decades, so he's seen a lot of the corruption and fucked up changes happen in real time, especially in scientific academia. He's got a great background in a lot of little-known science history, both in the U.S. and other countries.

                                His knowledge of the food industry informs a lot of his recommendations in ways that you're not likely to find other places. Even the foods that Peat cautions against (chicken, pork), it's not because those foods are inherently bad, it's more because of how industrialization changes those foods. Whereas ruminants (cows, lambs) can cope fairly well with poisonous, industrial feed because of their particular biology and digestive systems, chicken and pigs can't (and even many "naturally fed" chickens and pigs are still fed problematic things).

                                I got a much different impression of him after listening to a few of them. His diet is actually not as odd as it seems at first, it's easy to see gummy bears and ice cream and think the whole thing is just batshit insane, but in a lot of ways Peat is more inline with real 'ancestral' diets than a lot of the more orthodox paleo crowd is, specifically with whole animal, nose to tail eating, organs/gelatin, etc. His article on gelatin advocates a more natural approach to animal eating than most of what I've seen among orthodox paleo.

                                His stance on vegetables is also very inline with the paleo type thinking about wheat and grains, plants contain protective toxins as defense mechanisms, don't want to be eaten, so they try to poison the organisms that are eating them, etc., though this reasoning isn't typically applied to vegetables.
                                Last edited by TheChokingGame; 04-13-2014, 12:44 PM.

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