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Primal with MOAR Peat: Food & Hormone Discussion (Ray Peat Followers)

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  • Thanks derpy. I am intellectually lazy after all.
    JOURNAL..
    @BabesWithBBQ.
    Gelatin/bone broth recipes blog.
    Professional Style Website.
    #TeamBrisket Shirts

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    • Originally posted by TQP View Post
      Thanks derpy. I am intellectually lazy after all.
      Well, I'm glad in your heuristic availability that you chose to think of me...

      Make America Great Again

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      • Can't remember if this has been posted before, so there:

        “The polyunsaturated fats are universally toxic to the energy producing system, and act as a “misleading signal” channeling cellular adaptation down certain self-defeating pathways.”

        -Ray Peat

        So just in case there are people reading this who don’t know what PUFA are, PUFA stands for polyunsaturated fatty acids, these are liquid oils, they’re liquid because they unsaturated (in 2 or more places), these include sunflower oil, safflower oil, canola /rapeseed oil, hemp seed oil, flax oil, chia seeds, and of course the current darling of the health supplement industry, fish oil. These are the oils commonly called essential fatty acids (EFAs), calling them essential is virtually meaningless as its near impossible to entirely avoid consuming at least some of these (I’ve tried, it requires eating a super boring F.A.D. diet), There is evidence which suggests that it may well be better to seek to avoid PUFA, both omega 6 and 3.

        In 1938, a biochemist William Brown volunteered to go six months eating an extremely low-fat diet. He consumed a diet of defatted milk and cottage cheese, sucrose, potato starch, orange juice and some vitamin and mineral supplements. His blood lipids became more saturated and their concentrations of linoleic and arachidonic acids were cut in half. He experienced an absence of fatigue, his high blood pressure returned to normal, and migraines he had suffered from since childhood vanished, his metabolic rate increased and he lost weight, his respiratory quotient increased suggesting greater carbohydrate oxidation, lower respiratory quotients are associated with diabetes. The diet produced no deficiency, and likely corrected a PUFA excess. Six months on a specially prepared laboratory diet, no deficiency, if these fats are essential they’re essential in such tiny amounts that its almost meaningless to call them essential.

        Hold on, are you saying we should avoid essential fatty acids?

        Yes. “Essential” fatty acids are essentially toxic in warm-blooded oxygen respiring non-hibernating animals.

        If you look at where the PUFA are found in nature you’ll find them associated with cold temperatures, for example in fish like sardines swimming around in icy-cold arctic waters, if the sardines had saturated fats they’d probably be solid and inflexible in such cold waters, fish found in the Amazon have highly saturated fats, low in PUFA. The other place you find PUFA in abundance is in nuts and seeds that have to germinate in cool spring after freezing winters. It has been shown that plants can vary the degree of the saturation or unsaturation of their fats in response to the climate they are grown in, soya grown in a tropical environment will have less PUFA than soya grown in a temperate environment (Wolf 1982), this is also why the tropical oils, coconut and palm are so highly saturated. A human being is a walking tropical environment, the fact that we don’t produce omega 3 and 6 PUFA might just be a good thing.

        But, but…they’re called essential fatty acids, surely there must be studies that show they’re essential?

        The studies that claim to demonstrate the essentiality of PUFA, were carried out around 1929, in rats, further at this time a number of vitamins were unknown, including B6, the need for zinc and some other trace elements was also unknown, Ray Peat has pointed this out, and further shown that the PUFA deficient rats demonstrate a higher metabolic rate and so would require greater amounts of these vitamins an minerals, the PUFA fed rats had lower metabolisms and so could survive on deficient diets. Further in experiments in the 1940’s the “fat deficiency” disease was cured with supplemental B6.

        But, there’s thousands of studies in humans showing that fish oil is beneficial, that must mean its essential?

        The vast majority of those studies are terrible, there is no adequate control group, typically one group are given fish oil whilst the other are likely eating a diet high in omega 6 PUFA, so yes the fish oil can produce some anti-inflammatory effects, but to really get an idea of what’s going on you’d need an additional group eating an essential fatty acid deficient diet (no omega 3 or 6), such studies are lacking although there are some indications that “essential” fatty acid deficiency produces less inflammation than fish oil supplementation as shown in this study in rats (Ling et al. 2012). Just because a study demonstrates an apparently beneficial pharmacological effect of fish oil does not make fish oil an essential nutrient, given the high intakes of omega 6 oils and their pro-inflammatory effects some short term benefit to fish oil is not surprising, but a similar anti-inflammatory immune suppressive effect can be produced from x-rays, if someone is presenting with chronic inflammation it might just be better to recommend the use of anti-inflammatory substances such as aspirin or herbs such as Salix alba which can inhibit COX and LOX enzymes preventing the formation of inflammatory prostaglandins and suggesting that the person reduce their total PUFA intake.

        Ok, so maybe EFAs have been overhyped a little, but why should we avoid them, they’re natural?

        Earlier I mentioned about how PUFAs are found in fish and plants living at low temperatures, and are less common in warmer environments, there’s a good reason for this whilst the double bonds (unsaturations) make the oils more flexible they also make them more prone to oxidation, with the highly unsaturated EPA (unsaturated in 5 places) and DHA (unsaturated in 6 places) being the most unstable. Traditionally oils such as flax / linseed and fish oil were used in painting and for making varnishes, their unsaturation makes them react easily with oxygen, heat and light increase this reactivity, and under such conditions they polymerize and harden, great for painting, not so great in your body as they can degrade into lipid peroxidation products such as acrolein, malondialdehyde, hydroxynonenal, crotonaldehyde, ethane, pentane, and the neuroprostanes, many of these are implicated in range of disorders including general mitochondrial inhibition, Alzheimer’s (guess fish oil isn’t so awesome for your brain), and cancer.
        This article cites most of the studies mentioned above as well:
        PUFA | pranarupa

        And here's more:

        Toxicity of Stored PUFA – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)

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        • Originally posted by Graycat View Post
          Can't remember if this has been posted before, so there:



          This article cites most of the studies mentioned above as well:
          PUFA | pranarupa

          And here's more:

          Toxicity of Stored PUFA – Functional Performance Systems (FPS)
          pranarupa is where I took the parts not linked--link to the blog was given in the previous post I put those under. Wasn't in this topic though, I think. I've linked his blog a few times, Zach too. Always good to bump it back up though.
          Make America Great Again

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          • I thought it looked familiar. It made its way into my mailbox again today, courtesy of Matt Stone, along with his newsletter, which I'm posting as well:

            PUFA is no doubt a primary cause of the widespread slowing of the metabolic rate of modern humans.

            As we discussed in the last lesson, polyunsaturated fat has a specific role in ecosystems. The primary fatty acid of concern in plants--linoleic acid (LA), appears in the food chain in the fall when seeds, nuts, grains, acorns, and such form. The plant employs these fats to enable sprouting in cold, spring soils.

            To best demonstrate the effect this fat has on mammals that share a similar physiology to our own, we need look no further than the organisms that seasonally eat lots of these nuts, seeds, and acorns--bears, ground squirrels, and other hibernators primarily.

            Yeah, they go into hibernation--a state of extreme metabolic downregulation. Body temperature, pulse rate, respiratory rate, etc. fall to next to nothing, keeping these creatures from starving during their long, restless, winter nap.

            But you're thinking that animals just go into hibernation because day length shortens. Well, that may be part of it, but it's not the whole story. In fact, hibernating animals have trouble entering a state of torpor (hibernation) when linoleic acid isn't present. Keep giving them a steady supply of coconut oil with no PUFA and they can't go into hibernation at all!

            This makes sense of course if you are of the opinion that nature is intricate and smart. Coconut grows in places where there is no winter. No winter, no need to hibernate. And in the plant kingdom, no cold winter, no need to produce a bunch of linoleic acid.

            Linoleic acid really is the trigger to induce the characteristics of hibernation, including reduced body temperature, as you can see in this interesting review.

            But humans, so unaware of nature's intricacy as we can often be, started storing nuts and seeds and also extracting their oils. Instead of consuming them seasonally and maybe even doing ourselves a metabolic favor with a carbless winter approaching, we now consume unfathomable buttloads of these types of fats every single day.

            They are in everything, and some of the world's richest sources of linoleic acid are now the most-consumed fats in the global food supply. It is wildly significant, as this type of fat gets stored in our fat cells and tissues and has a huge influence over core biological functions--such as the regulation of inflammation and metabolic rate (arguably the most important of all functions in a discussion about degenerative disease).

            LA is also found in much higher concentrations in human breast milk than ever before seen. This is highly significant, as the amount of LA in mother's milk seems to be directly and almost single-handedly responsible for the size and number of the offspring's fat cells--the most important of all factors in accumulating excess fat later in life as any obesity researcher could tell you.

            I won't go into detail about how linoleic acid interferes with thyroid hormone utilization and the production of inflammatory molecules. You get the concept. But if you would like to research the matter further, or you lack confidence that what I've just written about PUFA has merit, I encourage you to review the following articles and many of the references cited..
            Last edited by Graycat; 02-04-2014, 04:49 PM.

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            • Cool articles guys. Gray, you mentioned an email; is that where you get these?

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              • thanks for the links & articles!

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                • Originally posted by RittenRemedy View Post
                  Cool articles guys. Gray, you mentioned an email; is that where you get these?
                  RR, I used to occasionally read Stone's blog before he switched over to the newsletter. I'm pretty sure you could sign up for it @ 180degreehealth.com

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                  • Originally posted by Graycat View Post
                    RR, I used to occasionally read Stone's blog before he switched over to the newsletter. I'm pretty sure you could sign up for it @ 180degreehealth.com
                    Cool thanks.

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                    • Hey Peaters! Any hormone insight for me?

                      Fall of 2012, I had my hormone levels tested. I don't have the values with me right now, but during luteal phase, when progesterone was highest, it was quite low. Doc suggested supplementing Vitex, so I did. Libido improved, PMS symptoms (very dark depression worsening over week prior to period starting) improved, but then I started growing some dark hairs in places I didn't want them! I backed off on the Vitex, thinking I must have topped off, was okay for a month, then the PMS came back. Thus began a back and forth cycle with the Vitex, always running into those pesky hairs after a few months. My libido has tanked since then too.

                      I just had my hormones re-checked and I didn't specify which ones, so she only did progesterone and estradiol. Here's my results and the ranges she provided for luteal phase. She said it's "normal" but at the low end of the range, I feel like that's not?

                      Estradiol 72.4 pg/mL
                      Progesterone 3.44 ng/mL

                      Ranges provided for luteal phase:
                      Estradiol 55.8 - 214.2
                      Progesterone 2.65 - 21.1

                      Thoughts on an appropriate range? I just started progest-e after testing, so hopefully I'll see some changes in the next few months. Really want my libido back but it's been pesky for several years
                      Depression Lies

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                      • Hey everyone, new member on this forum here trying to make the most of my new "Peat diet".

                        I started following Peat guidelines concerning nutrition a month ago, and I find that I lack some of the things you guys mention here, like the aspirin or the daily carrot.

                        Would you please explain to me how important they are ?

                        Thanks a lot.

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                        • Hi namelesswonder,

                          Re progesterone, if you track your cycle and can pinpoint when you ovulate, your luteal phase should be 12-14 days long (from ovulation to start of period). Shorter than 12 days would mean low progesterone (usually not enough progesterone for embryo to implant). If you track for a few months, a pattern should emerge.

                          I started protest-e recently and the biggest effect so far is improved sleep.

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                          • Primal with MOAR Peat: Food & Hormone Discussion (Ray Peat Followers)

                            Originally posted by Manoko View Post
                            Hey everyone, new member on this forum here trying to make the most of my new "Peat diet".

                            I started following Peat guidelines concerning nutrition a month ago, and I find that I lack some of the things you guys mention here, like the aspirin or the daily carrot.

                            Would you please explain to me how important they are ?

                            Thanks a lot.
                            Someone correct me if I am wrong, but I found this for carrot:
                            http://www.raypeatforum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?p=411

                            I eat a raw carrot (not shredded) every day for breakfast with my light coconut milk+ coffee and 1L lemon water.

                            And as aspirin, it is to shield body from PUFA, along with a host of other benefits. I only take one aspirin after workouts since I already take progest-e for PUFA, and I don't eat PUFA much (only large source is when I eat a lot of eggs... And I make sure to get cage free). Otherwise my small intake of fat comes from dairy, small amount of butter/ghee/coconut and red meat.

                            Otherwise I take inspiration from the fruitarians for their meals, as it is high carb/sugar low fat. They eat stuff like dry baked sweet potatoes/potatoes (I use a small spritz of coconut oil spray), bananas and coconut water smoothies (I add a bit of gelatin/egg white), and fruit soft serves/nice creams (I add gelatin).
                            Last edited by TQP; 02-12-2014, 07:47 AM.
                            JOURNAL..
                            @BabesWithBBQ.
                            Gelatin/bone broth recipes blog.
                            Professional Style Website.
                            #TeamBrisket Shirts

                            Comment


                            • I just started taking Progest-e. Not sure how much to take or what to look for in terms of my body's response. My plan was just to take it during the luteal phase (10-14 days prior to my period, which is very regular). I keep forgetting to add aspirin to my regimen.
                              Depression Lies

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                              • Has anyone with MPB managed to stop his hair loss and/or see regrowth following a diet like Danny Roddy advocates ?

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