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  • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    Take photos in same ligthening and at the same time of the day and compare them monthly! Why are there still no computerprogram to trace and recognize leanness and/or muscularity based on photos? - would have been a very useful tool...
    I agree! Progress pics are the best

    Originally posted by Leida View Post
    I too find that embracing the heavier body actually made it more appealing. I was devastated after my first bulk up when I went from 122 to 132 lbs. Now I am heavier than that, and not hysterical. Yet. I think going over 130 lbs and apparently permanently broke my spirit. There is like no hope to get back into 120s, let alone below it... I kindda go between feeling good and bad about how I look a few times during the day. Like when I walk in the street, I would catch my reflection and think it's great. Then I look in the bathroom mirror in the office, and get terrified by how stolid I have become. Literally within half-hour time span. It's crazy.

    But, uhm, nothing to do with Peat!
    Leids, believe me, I know how you feel! The level of self hatred I could have for my body was quite mind-blowing. The best thing I could think when I walked past my reflection was "OH. I don't look that bad". I've had many a melt down about it in my journal... my poor internet friends

    But I think having the heavier body was good for my self esteem ultimately. I really worked on self acceptance over those months. Then suddenly, the weight started coming off. I lost 6 lbs in two weeks! Now I'm 132lbs, which is still 8lbs more than when I started Primal, but I honestly feel happy at this weight. I think I look fine.

    Which is why I'm saying - I wonder how much of appreciation of self appearance just comes down to other stressors, like diet, sleep etc. Maybe cos I feel satiated and un-deprived of food, I feel more content with my body, because I'm not living in fear that the hunger monster will possess me and render me helpless to weight gain. I feel connected to my body, for the first time since I was a teenager.

    And I think it's cos of eating Peat. But that's just me
    "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

    In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

    - Ray Peat

    Comment


    • Maybe not so much eating Peat, as eating YB, or eating Leida... in other words not breaking the natural preferences to conform to very alien food choices. I used to think that the more contrary to your natural choices the diet is, the more effective the switch will be, shocking you into weight loss. But now I wonder. Is it really accidental, that I earnestly want to eat fat free yogurt, fruit and boiled white fish, while other folks view that as a torture diet?
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

      Comment


      • Originally posted by Leida View Post
        Maybe not so much eating Peat, as eating YB, or eating Leida... in other words not breaking the natural preferences to conform to very alien food choices. I used to think that the more contrary to your natural choices the diet is, the more effective the switch will be, shocking you into weight loss. But now I wonder. Is it really accidental, that I earnestly want to eat fat free yogurt, fruit and boiled white fish, while other folks view that as a torture diet?
        YES!

        I honestly think it's just about eating whole foods that you want. Not foods that you're addicted to, or that are trying to itch a scratch. Around May I honestly started to think that I had a metabolic disorder that made me put away so much food and still convert it to fat, and now I realise I was still just eating the wrong foods. Starch makes me insatiable.

        So yeah, not entirely Peat, but it was only after I read his research into sugar that I started to look carefully at Lustig's video and realise he was talking through his arse. Personally, a little bit of refined sugar in my diet has been a saving grace.

        I'm also a bit fan of the mono meals now! Something very satiating about them. And, after years of obsessing about food, it feels unbelievably liberating to not cook / give a fuck
        "I think the basic anti-aging diet is also the best diet for prevention and treatment of diabetes, scleroderma, and the various "connective tissue diseases." This would emphasize high protein, low unsaturated fats, low iron, and high antioxidant consumption, with a moderate or low starch consumption.

        In practice, this means that a major part of the diet should be milk, cheese, eggs, shellfish, fruits and coconut oil, with vitamin E and salt as the safest supplements."

        - Ray Peat

        Comment


        • I like the simplicity as well, though I still cook for my folks. I also feel that coming through the school of very different diets and matching macros and restrictions was a good experience, so I am not going to wonder any more if eating cream and bacon with a side of eggs is gonna solve all my problems magically. I am not going to eat conceptually, lol. I also know that there is nothing wrong with me. Nothing.
          My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
          When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

          Comment


          • I would like to point out a different strategy for all of you looking to lose weight and maintain a lower body fat percentage.

            What I've found is that my natural hunger level seems to maintain me at about 145 lbs. That's where my body likes to hang. About 18 months ago, I was trying to keep my body fat down. It was extremely difficult, because I would have to track calories to ensure I would lose body fat. The problem is, I'd have to consistently drop them lower and lower as the metabolic rate dropped from chronic dieting, and eventually it was a chronic hunger and lower than what I could consistently maintain, leading to cravings - something I'd never experienced before.

            So what did I do? I gained 20 lbs over the fall and winter. And how did I do it? I made half a gallon of homemade ice cream every week, ate all my normal foods and piled on ice cream after every meal. I gained considerable strength and considerable fat, but it's the winter. Who cares? It wasn't enough fat to have to buy new clothes. Everything still fit, just tighter.

            Over the spring, I cut off all the additional weight - and it was easy, I just cut out my daily ice cream and chocolate and got back to eating regular food. Now, I'm back to 145 lbs because that's what my body wants to sit at - but with considerably less fat and more muscle. Before, it was a struggle to maintain 142 lbs on about 2,000 calories a day which left me hungry - now I maintain 145 lbs on 2,500 calories a day with a better fat:muscle ratio. Over the next fall/winter, I intend on gaining another 20 lbs and cutting off 10-15 lbs in the spring, leaving me with another 5-10 lbs of added muscle. I hope to maintain in the 145-150lb range next year eating even more calories with even less body fat and more muscle.

            145 lbs last year had me in the 15-16% bf range. This year, 145 lbs has me in the 13-14% bf range. Next year, I anticipate it being around 11-12%. 11% is where I'd like to hang permanently. After that, my arms and shoulders get too striated, my face gets gaunt and I get too many veins in my arms. The girl doesn't like it.

            Simply put, if you can't maintain 122 lbs because it is too low of a weight but you can maintain 130 lbs effortlessly, add 8 lbs of muscle. It may involving gaining a 20 lb mix of fat, water and muscle, but who cares? Gain the 20 lbs during the fall and winter while no one is looking, shed the 12 lbs from February to May and hold 130 lbs with an extra 8 lbs of muscle. 130 lbs with 8 lbs of added muscle will be a lower body fat percentage than 122 lbs as you stand now anyway. Look into longterm weight loss. Stop dieting.
            Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-07-2013, 08:02 AM.
            Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

            Comment


            • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
              I would like to point out a different strategy for all of you looking to lose weight and maintain a lower body fat percentage.

              What I've found is that my natural hunger level seems to maintain me at about 145 lbs. That's where my body likes to hang. About 18 months ago, I was trying to keep my body fat down. It was extremely difficult, because I would have to track calories to ensure I would lose body fat. The problem is, I'd have to consistently drop them lower and lower as the metabolic rate dropped from chronic dieting, and eventually it was a chronic hunger and lower than what I could consistently maintain, leading to cravings - something I'd never experienced before.

              So what did I do? I gained 20 lbs over the fall and winter. And how did I do it? I made half a gallon of homemade ice cream every week, ate all my normal foods and piled on ice cream after every meal. I gained considerable strength and considerable fat, but it's the winter. Who cares? It wasn't enough fat to have to buy new clothes. Everything still fit, just tighter.

              Over the spring, I cut off all the additional weight. Now, I'm back to 145 lbs because that's what my body wants to sit at - but with considerably less fat and more muscle. Before, it was a struggle to maintain 142 lbs on about 2,000 calories a day which left me hungry - now I maintain 145 lbs on 2,500 calories a day with a better fat:muscle ratio. Over the next fall/winter, I intend on gaining another 20 lbs and cutting off 10-15 lbs in the spring, leaving me with another 5-10 lbs of added muscle. I hope to maintain in the 145-150lb range next year eating even more calories with even less body fat and more muscle.

              145 lbs last year had me in the 15-16% bf range. This year, 145 lbs has me in the 13-14% bf range. Next year, I anticipate it being around 11-12%. 11% is where I'd like to hang permanently. After that, my arms and shoulders get too striated, my face gets gaunt and I get too many veins in my arms. The girl doesn't like it.

              Simply put, if you can't maintain 122 lbs because it is too low of a weight but you can maintain 130 lbs effortlessly, add 8 lbs of muscle. It may involving gaining a 20 lb mix of fat, water and muscle, but who cares? Gain the 20 lbs during the fall and winter while no one is looking, shed the 12 lbs from February to May and hold 130 lbs with an extra 8 lbs of muscle.
              Interesting thought.

              Comment


              • Simply put, if you can't maintain 122 lbs because it is too low of a weight but you can maintain 130 lbs effortlessly, add 8 lbs of muscle. It may involving gaining a 20 lb mix of fat, water and muscle, but who cares? Gain the 20 lbs during the fall and winter while no one is looking, shed the 12 lbs from February to May and hold 130 lbs with an extra 8 lbs of muscle. 130 lbs with 8 lbs of added muscle will be a lower body fat percentage than 122 lbs as you stand now anyway. Look into longterm weight loss. Stop dieting.
                Chaco, it works for you, because it is easy for you to lose weight since you are a young male. Whenever I gain weight, I cannot lose it, unless I starve. When I started eating to hunger this October, I rolled up from mid 120's to mid 130's literally in 2-3 weeks. And every day I have to fast and limit my food intake just to stay there. Every time I eat more, I pack on pounds. And they do NOT drop effortlessly. And no, I don't get leaner when I drop weight. And I gain less than 50% muscle when I gain and drop more than that when I lose. When I bulked first time to 132 lbs, I had 107 lbs of muscular mass. Now I am 135 lbs with 105 lbs muscular mass. I think weight gain for me is a very, very bad idea, as I experience the yo-yo effect they warn you about when you end up becoming fatter at the same weight.

                I am almost 40. I am a woman with a pear shape. I am afraid to gain any more fat - I have more than enough. If I can't grow muscle at this BF% with split routines by the end of the year, I am going to say f**k it, and do what everyone else does. Stop eating and lifting, and start spinning. I hate the idea, but it's better be thin and not muscular than fat and not muscular.
                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                Comment


                • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  Chaco, it works for you, because it is easy for you to lose weight since you are a young male.
                  This is completely untrue. It is not easier for a male to lose weight than a female. It may appear that way since men burn more calories on average in a day so undereating to a certain percentage is a faster loss to someone with a higher TDEE, but a 500 calorie deficit for a man is no different than a 500 calorie deficit for a woman. Men and women have been socially brainwashed to eat and exercise a very certain way, and women are brainwashed into poor habits. Eat like a man and lift like a man and you'll bridge that gap.

                  Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  Whenever I gain weight, I cannot lose it, unless I starve. When I started eating to hunger this October, I rolled up from mid 120's to mid 130's literally in 2-3 weeks.
                  No kidding. What do you think happens when you starve yourself?

                  1.) You carry very little glycogen and water. Upping your calories immediately fill these stores. That is an instant 4-5 lb gain for a woman and can be in the 5-10 lb range for a male - with not a single drop being added fat or muscle.

                  2.) When you maintain deficits for too long, your body drops its metabolic rate (via a slowing thyroid and increased stress hormones). This causes fat preservation and lean tissue breakdown. Consequently, the second you enter a surplus, your body preferentially stores those calories as fat in a higher ratio than normal since you have crushed your anabolic hormones, raised your catabolic hormones and you've convinced your body you are starving and need to put on fat.

                  You are doing exactly what you shouldn't be doing.

                  Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  And every day I have to fast and limit my food intake just to stay there. Every time I eat more, I pack on pounds. And they do NOT drop effortlessly. And no, I don't get leaner when I drop weight. And I gain less than 50% muscle when I gain and drop more than that when I lose. When I bulked first time to 132 lbs, I had 107 lbs of muscular mass. Now I am 135 lbs with 105 lbs muscular mass. I think weight gain for me is a very, very bad idea, as I experience the yo-yo effect they warn you about when you end up becoming fatter at the same weight.
                  Stop telling your body you're starving. When you do that you provoke lean mass loss during deficits and fat gain during surpluses. You need to actually find out what your TDEE is and what your natural weight is supposed to be. Stop dieting, stop tracking calories. Eat normally and see where your body ends up. This may take a few months to settle, and it probably won't be a weight you "like" mentally. That's too bad - this is the weight you need to end up at. After you establish that proper baseline, prepare all your normal meals as typical and just add food. Make a healthy dessert rich in protein that promotes anabolic muscle growth, like homemade ice cream or rice pudding. All can be made from wholesome sources and go great with added gelatin. Eat all your normal meals and jam dessert down your throat til you're uncomfortably full after each meal til you gain 20 lbs. It'll probably take 3-4 months. Lift heavy throughout all of this, maybe even on a daily basis since your body will recover much more quickly on a significant daily caloric surplus. Follow up all your workouts with 15 mins of cardio to keep fat gain at bay. Once you reach your desired weight, just cut out the ice cream and rice pudding. It'll fall off over months.

                  Sound ugly? It is. And it's exactly what I did. And it worked so well I'll be doing it again.

                  Originally posted by Leida View Post
                  I am almost 40. I am a woman with a pear shape. I am afraid to gain any more fat - I have more than enough. If I can't grow muscle at this BF% with split routines by the end of the year, I am going to say f**k it, and do what everyone else does. Stop eating and lifting, and start spinning. I hate the idea, but it's better be thin and not muscular than fat and not muscular.
                  I am almost 30. I am a 5'7" guy with chicken wing arms and shoulders, stubs for legs and a tendency to pile all my fat solely around my bellybutton. I will never be fast and strong because I do not have the genetics and skeletal structure to do it. But I've done good things with the little I was given. It took me most of my life to realize that these are excuses. Sure, some people are blessed with awesome genetics, but everybody with two functioning arms and legs has the ability to be fast, strong and lean. Don't make excuses for yourself. You can do it, you just have to be willing to do what it takes.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • Originally posted by WeldingHank View Post
                    Interesting thought.
                    Oh, it isn't a thought. People eat to a setpoint weight range naturally. People gain weight over years because they habitually eat the same sized meals at the same times, yet their activity levels and metabolism slow with age (hence the weight gain). If you want to fix that, chronically overeat with a heavy lifting regimen to gain considerable lean tissue, then just drop the uncomfortable overeating while maintaining your lifting schedule so you drop mostly fat. You'll wind up at a higher weight with more lean tissue, improving body composition.

                    Is it perfect? No, but it'll improve you every time.
                    Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                    Comment


                    • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
                      Oh, it isn't a thought. People eat to a setpoint weight range naturally. People gain weight over years because they habitually eat the same sized meals at the same times, yet their activity levels and metabolism slow with age (hence the weight gain). If you want to fix that, chronically overeat with a heavy lifting regimen to gain considerable lean tissue, then just drop the uncomfortable overeating while maintaining your lifting schedule so you drop mostly fat. You'll wind up at a higher weight with more lean tissue, improving body composition.

                      Is it perfect? No, but it'll improve you every time.
                      Experimenting has been really fun for me as of late, upping carbohydrate and lowering fat slightly. Really helped with my martial arts performance. I even dropped a few more pounds. But, like you have mentioned, I'm stuck at 225. And its an easy 225. I can eat just about as much as I want,when I want and I just stay the same weight. But, I'd like to be a little leaner. So, maybe this winter, I'll try that out!

                      Comment


                      • Sorry, but this time I don't believe you. You always sound like you know it all, but you change your mind all the time and you believe in your very lastest concept.

                        You suggested other things for me in the past, and I earnestly tried. Some worked, some did not, some I was unable to keep up.

                        Overall, I am worse off for trying.

                        I'd rather kill myself than intentionally eat myself into the same 155 lbs I have escaped 4 years ago. I prefer hungry and shoulder-less 118 to fat 155 at my age. Eating myself up will only end with me being a behemoth again 20 years earlier. I will just stick with eating normally, not dieting, not counting calories, but doing what I can to stop the descent into fat. I will NOT be fat again. I will NOT.
                        Last edited by Leida; 08-07-2013, 09:30 AM.
                        My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                        When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                        Comment


                        • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          Sorry, but this time I don't believe you. You always sound like you know it all, but you change your mind all the time and you believe in your very lastest concept.
                          Sure I do. When better information is discovered, I modify my approach. I never claimed I know everything - that's why I change my mind on things. I don't have an agenda to promote. I'm not trying to sell you something. Is this a negative to you? Also, me "changing my mind" isn't some radical thing. Modifying my stance on carbohydrate is not radical. I eat the same foods I always eat, and they're almost always Primal. The core concept remains, I just believe potatoes and fruit are healthier than nuts and refined fats. Nothing radical there, right?

                          Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          You suggested other things for me in the past, and I earnestly tried. Some worked, some did not, some I was unable to keep up.

                          Overall, I am worse off for trying.
                          Gaining knowledge is never a bad thing.

                          Originally posted by Leida View Post
                          I'd rather kill myself than intentionally eat myself into the same 155 lbs I have escaped 4 years ago. I prefer hungry and shoulder-less 118 to fat 155 at my age. Eating myself up will only end with me being a behemoth again 20 years earlier. I will just stick with eating normally, not dieting, not counting calories, but doing what I can to stop the descent into fat. I will NOT be fat again. I will NOT.
                          This IMO is a sad statement to make. Unfortunately, people that diet themselves into a hole and they refuse to cure themselves because the cure is reverse-dieting. It takes time to break down your body and crush your TDEE, and it may take even longer to recover it. You can't just instantly undo years of damages in some cases, though I believe the body is resilient and can be repaired. Temporarily gaining weight to keep it off permanently isn't a bad thing. I did it, and I was slightly puffier for 6 months to look better for good.

                          The most crucial thing here is it isn't "the same 155 lbs." Center your big meals around heavy lifting, keep your protein up, carb cycle, do cardio while you rest and you should gain a high quality 20 lbs, then lose a low quality 10 lbs. Overall, I came out of my hole with about 7 or 8 lbs of muscle. And it took a year to do it.
                          Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                          Comment


                          • It makes no sense, because people dieted in the first place to lose the extra weight they put on by not dieting. So, there is absolutely no point to repeat the experience. It's untrue that you somehow get to be a better body comp simply because you get fat on (conversely) better foods than the ones you had before. And I firmly believe that staying overweight in any age is bad, and completely devastating when you are older and a woman. I don't believe I can lose any fat I gain any longer. It's not like you can chose to lose fat. If it was just a matter of creating a tiny caloric deficit the way you did after you gained weight, I'd be back in 120's again by now. So yeah. Agree to disagree.
                            Last edited by Leida; 08-07-2013, 10:45 AM.
                            My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                            When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                            Comment


                            • Originally posted by Leida View Post
                              It makes no sense, because people dieted in the first place to lose the extra weight they put on by not dieting. So, there is absolutely no point to repeat the experience. It's untrue that you somehow get to be a better body comp simply because you get fat on (conversely) better foods than the ones you had before. And I firmly believe that staying overweight in any age is bad, and completely devastating when you are older and a woman. I don't believe I can lose any fat I gain any longer. It's not like you can chose to lose fat. If it was just a matter of creating a tiny caloric deficit the way you did after you gained weight, I'd be back in 120's again by now. So yeah. Agree to disagree.
                              What you said only makes sense in the context of people gaining and losing the exact same ratio of fat and muscle each time. It happens to normal people because normal people are sedentary, overeat poor quality foods like deep fried refined grain flour and soda while sitting on their butts, then try and "cut down" while starving themselves doing chronic cardio. They gain mostly fat during their "bulking phase," lose mostly lean tissue during their "cutting phase," then when they rebound and binge after their prolonged caloric deficit they wind up in even worse shape than before.

                              We aren't normal people because we have superior knowledge of how the body works and which foods best support health and well-being.

                              Center your surplus meals post-workout. Make them heavy on protein, very heavy on carbohydrate, light on fat. It's extremely difficult to convert protein and carbohydrate to adipose tissue, so large caloric surpluses following a heavy lift will yield mostly "good" weight gained. Conversely, when you're cutting back down, maintain your lifts to preserve lean muscle tissue, eat post-workout to maintenance and cut your carbohydrate and calories while sedentary to promote fatty acid mobilization, the whole time keeping dietary fat in check since that is the main culprit regarding fat gain.

                              Using weight lifting and carbohydrate cycling, it's very easy to make most of your weight gain lean mass and most of your weight loss fat mass. I think you just have to do several bulk/cut cycles until you can maintain a lean body composition at 130 lbs. It may take 3 or 4 cycles if you have trouble, but you can do it. The problem I see is that you never follow through - you get too freaked out seeing your weight increase, bail on the plan and start restricting calories again. Which will make you even worse off than when you started in many cases.

                              I promise you, in terms of genetics, I am below average. I am not blessed. If I can do it, you can do it.
                              Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 08-07-2013, 01:12 PM.
                              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                              Comment


                              • You gotta like bulk and cut bra... You'll never get Hooooooge if you don't feed da muscle bra... i like icecream wrapped in tortillas topped with whip cream and powder sugar for my bulks bra. Get your protein shake in 4x/day and your golden bra. Then you just like don't eat anything with energy till your to 4% shredded and the judges will be like whoa bro...make sure you get your 3g/body ounce of protein though... feed da muscle bro!
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 08-07-2013, 01:29 PM. Reason: Hmmmm... do the muscle mags use bra or bro? I'll alternate.

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