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Carbohydrate Requirements - How much do you need?

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  • #16
    Nice article, hope everyone clicks and reads it. The last para:
    Clearly the above represents a pretty drastic range of carbohydrate requirements, depending on the specifics. For a typical male with 160 pounds of lean body mass, daily carbohydrate intake could range from the physiological requirement of zero grams per day to a near maximum of 1120 g/day during a carb-load. Which makes it no wonder that people are confused.

    Simply, the question “How Many Carbohydrates Do You Need?” has no singular answer. The goals of the person, the amount and type of activity, their individual needs (e.g. insulin sensitive vs. resistant, whether or not they function well in ketosis or not), their individual goals all determine how many carbs are ideal in the diet.
    I know for me, if I get below 100g/day, I feel fine but will jolt awake around 2am and sleep horribly the rest of the night. I don't function well in ketosis, and believe me, I tried!

    One size does not fit all!

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    • #17
      Originally posted by otzi View Post
      Nice article, hope everyone clicks and reads it. The last para:


      I know for me, if I get below 100g/day, I feel fine but will jolt awake around 2am and sleep horribly the rest of the night. I don't function well in ketosis, and believe me, I tried!

      One size does not fit all!
      Exactly, I encourage everyone to experiment and determine what works best for them.

      Also, I've recently began thinking that many of us sometimes get sidetracked from core Paleo/Primal principles. While we experiment with our personal carb needs, let's remember to try and keep our focus on the original Paleo concept of attempting to make sure we are eating real foods and experimenting with ancestral eating patterns - organic, free range, pastured and wild meat, poultry and fish, seasonal fruits and vegetables and various forms of feasting and fasting.
      Last edited by canuck416; 07-28-2013, 08:54 AM.
      Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

      https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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      • #18
        Lyle seems to be one of the few people who can write objectively about any topic.

        Hell, he wrote an entire book on the Ketogenic Diet and he doesn't even advocate it for most people.
        My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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        • #19
          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
          Lyle seems to be one of the few people who can write objectively about any topic.

          Hell, he wrote an entire book on the Ketogenic Diet and he doesn't even advocate it for most people.
          Nice blog Jake, I'll check in from time to time.
          Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

          https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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          • #20
            Originally posted by canuck416 View Post
            Nice blog Jake, I'll check in from time to time.
            Thanks man, I really appreciate it.
            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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            • #21
              My pet theory is that the water fraction is a big deal. Folks eat defective dry food, lose health, and blame the effect on glucose. Bread, pasta, granola, cereal, popcorn, and crackers have horrifyingly high kcal/pound (more than any steak or egg) so if satiety is influenced by stomach weight those foods will lead to gross energy excess.

              By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

              Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.
              37//6'3"/185

              My peculiar nutrition glossary and shopping list

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              • #22
                Originally posted by picklepete View Post

                By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

                Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.
                Yes, its difficult to exceed 150 gms of carbs without a concentrated effort, especially if you stick to a typical Paleo/Primal diet of meat, poultry, fish, eggs, veg and some fruit.
                Last edited by canuck416; 07-28-2013, 12:08 PM.
                Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by picklepete View Post
                  My pet theory is that the water fraction is a big deal. Folks eat defective dry food, lose health, and blame the effect on glucose. Bread, pasta, granola, cereal, popcorn, and crackers have horrifyingly high kcal/pound (more than any steak or egg) so if satiety is influenced by stomach weight those foods will lead to gross energy excess.

                  By contrast I do not restrict the following foods: potatoes, sweet potatoes, yams, parsnips, taro, cassava, lotus root, burdock root, squashes (butternut, kabocha, acorn), plantains, breadfruit, chestnuts, acorns (Korean “dotori”), berries, citrus, melons, stone fruits (nectarines, cherries, apricots), tropical fruit, pears, apples, grapes. I do measure and minimize tapioca flour, dates, honey, etc.

                  Despite not restricting, when I examine the menu I virtually never exceed 150g carbohydrate in a day just following my appetite. Average is closer to 100g. This is low-carb by USDA standards and lower-carb than any national average on the planet. Am I unusual? Who knows, but this approach gives me a lot of serenity.


                  Tends to converge with the acellular carbs hypothesis.

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                  • #24
                    Thanks for the link!! Great info!

                    Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      Tends to converge with the acellular carbs hypothesis.
                      Not to derail the thread too much, but that hypothesis doesn't account for non-obese traditional populations that use sago as their staple starch. The whole paper in general is a pretty big mess. Example:

                      Originally posted by Ian Spreadbury
                      Severe caloric restriction for 8 weeks with a diet of refined-liquid meal-replacement formula supplemented with some vegetables (510 kcal Optifast with vegetables to a total of 600 kcal per day) was reported to normalize beta-cell function and insulin sensitivity in a small group of type II diabetics (<4 years from diagnosis).107 This represents an intake of acellular carbohydrates of around 237 kcal per day (the liquid diet was 46.4% carbohydrate), which might represent a sufficient reduction to avoid adverse metabolic microbial effects.
                      I've read that study, and the improvement in beta-cell function was associated with reduced ectopic fat (lipotoxicity) as a result of the severe caloric restriction, yet Spreadbury presented it as support for a low carbohydrate paleo diet.

                      Anyhow... that's a good article about carbohydrate requirements. Thanks for sharing.

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                      • #26
                        This article reminds me alot of mark's "carb curve" that gets severely lambasted on these forums, just lyle doesn't really go into fat-loss regarding the carb partitioning, more of a 'go with what works for you'.

                        In light of this, alot of people plonk themselves somewhere along this range and stay there. In fact 3 distinct "camps" have kind of formed that most primal dieters align to and fight about. They are low, medium and high carb eating (duh). Unless you have a specific need to be in one of these camps (like keto for epilepsy and cancer control), I believe it is less than optimal to align with one specific carb eating "camp". The optimal way to eat carbs in my books is to "eat the range" and be in all the camps cyclically over a week or fortnight. A few brief reasons for this are;

                        *gene expression, ancient man for millions of years, would've had a very fluctuating range of macro and cal amounts that he ate on a daily/weekly basis.
                        *our bodies tend to suffer chronically if we don't give body systems a rest. sitting at one end of the carb spectrum means one metabolic glucose processing system is not getting used while the other is constantly used.(once again, don't flame me if you need to align with a camp to alleviate serious conditions).

                        but yeah, lyle is a good goto for base nutritional or metabolic knowledge.
                        A little primal gem - My Success Story
                        Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                          A few brief reasons for this are;

                          *gene expression, ancient man for millions of years, would've had a very fluctuating range of macro and cal amounts that he ate on a daily/weekly basis.
                          *our bodies tend to suffer chronically if we don't give body systems a rest. sitting at one end of the carb spectrum means one metabolic glucose processing system is not getting used while the other is constantly used.(once again, don't flame me if you need to align with a camp to alleviate serious conditions).

                          but yeah, lyle is a good goto for base nutritional or metabolic knowledge.
                          Very much agree, well said!
                          Recent Blog: http://www.peakperformanceradio.net/...y-john-saville

                          https://www.facebook.com/PaleoJourne...?ref=bookmarks

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Timthetaco View Post
                            Not to derail the thread too much, but that hypothesis doesn't account for non-obese traditional populations that use sago as their staple starch. The whole paper in general is a pretty big mess. Example:

                            I've read that study, and the improvement in beta-cell function was associated with reduced ectopic fat (lipotoxicity) as a result of the severe caloric restriction, yet Spreadbury presented it as support for a low carbohydrate paleo diet.
                            To be fair, I was presenting that study and suggesting that food effects upon the upper GI microbiota may be an alternative explanation to the conventional one (that I believe you're referring to). This was compared with the similar effects of an ad libitum ancestral-style diet, where that conventional explanation was much less likely to apply, but the microbiome-refinement hypothesis still held. Which is a perfectly fair point to make as part of hypothesis formation.

                            Regarding sago, there seems to be a dose-response relationship involved between refinement and metabolic and health outcomes. Most bread-eating Westerners were not obese until we really pushed the industrialisation and refinement of food to new heights in the late 20th century. The sago eaters likely still have plenty of whole foods in their diet, but, like 1900s Europeans, I suspect it is unlikely they have hunter-gatherer or Kitavan levels of metabolic and inflammatory health despite their leanness.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Ian Spreadbury View Post
                              Regarding sago, there seems to be a dose-response relationship involved between refinement and metabolic and health outcomes. Most bread-eating Westerners were not obese until we really pushed the industrialisation and refinement of food to new heights in the late 20th century. The sago eaters likely still have plenty of whole foods in their diet, but, like 1900s Europeans, I suspect it is unlikely they have hunter-gatherer or Kitavan levels of metabolic and inflammatory health despite their leanness.
                              With regard to carbohydrate refinement in general, where do societies that eat a large amount of polished rice fit into your theory? I've noticed in the West we're obsessed over arguing over the wholeness of the grain, but there are many asian cultures that eat a large amount of refined grain and achieve much better health.

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                              • #30
                                Lyle also says: if you have a sweet tooth, eat some artificially sweetened jello (on low carb days). Lyle is very much into chemistry games. I dunno, for me Lyle is an alternative to Paleo. I see paleo as natural eating, while Lyle's as highly constructed and artificial. His approaches can be extreme. They get results. And they are hard to achieve without aids of artificial foods.
                                My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                                When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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