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What are the real weight loss benefits of going primal?

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  • We think in calories because those are the only terms that are quantifiable statistically. That does not make it the correct way to conceptualize nutrition; it just makes it the most scientifically convenient.
    Then couple it with weight being the standard for defining a healthy a body and well, you end up with people malnourishing themselves down to a skinny fat body that is so hungry for nutrition that they can't help but overeat and get fat again.

    Body composition and the nutrition of foods is so much more important to long term health, and IMO, long term weightloss. I'm weighing more, but getting harder and leaner but I eat more.

    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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    • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
      Ok here's the wrap...

      CICO is a generalised term for the "conservation of energy" hypothesis that is commonly written as the first law of thermodynamics.

      Conservation of energy basically means that as energy changes form, it is fully converted to the new form, no energy is ever lost. Although as energy changes from one form, it can split into 2 or more forms of an equal amount of energy, ie chemical energy splits into heat and kinetic when converted in muscle cells.

      Ultimately we (an organism) are a massive ball of energy conversion. Heat, kinetic, potential, electrical & chemical energies are constantly being converted in billions of cells in our bodies at any particular moment and also being lost to the environment. These energy conversions are an incredibly complex process, tho over billions of years of evolution our cells have evolved to a kind of homeostasis where the system just work together.

      The major problem happens when our conscious brain reads an Internet piece and decides to start "controlling" the energy conversion processes from its very limited linear thought process.

      Do you get this? Our conscious minds have a singular thought train. It can only think of one thing at once. Our bodies have billions of energy conversion processes happening at any 1 time. It is almost impossible to subjugate the sub conscious body systems with your conscious mind. Ie impose cico.

      "We" do have some control over the environment and conditions this massive ball of energy conversion (our body) operates in. So in effect we can "encourage" and "influence" CICO, but if you think you can control it, your dreaming.


      Sent from my iPhone
      uhm, damn

      are you suggesting what i think you are suggesting?
      Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

      Predator not Prey
      Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

      CW 315 | SW 506
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      • Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
        2012
        Pro-CICO argument: "A calorie is a calorie is a calorie, and all calories are used identically by the body for purpose of weight loss or gain."
        Anti-CICO argument: "It's really complicated metabolically."

        2013 Pro-CICO argument: "It's really complicated metabolically. Hey, stop stealing our argument!"
        lol.... your right. Its like they keep moving the target. Started out that everyone knew what the Pro-CICO camp implied. Now they muddy the water by accepting or even integrating the Anti- CICO stuff into their rhetoric and still calling it CICO. Huh?!?! Hey if you wanna accept that hormonal status, TYPES OF CALORIES, and health of the organism are MORE important than the QUANTITY of calories consumed, but still call that CICO...... have at it I suppose.

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        • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
          uhm, damn

          are you suggesting what i think you are suggesting?
          What's that quelsy?

          A quick summary would be, our bodies aren't exempt from the laws of thermodynamics but you also can't say that simply applying a calorie deficit will result in fat loss in all cases. We are far more complicated than that and have many options our bodies can enact to satisfy these laws.


          Sent from my iPhone
          A little primal gem - My Success Story
          Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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          • Originally posted by ChocoTaco369 View Post
            CICO never said that. CICO says "you need an energy deficit to lose weight and you need an energy surplus to gain weight."

            You are confusing CICO with IIFYM - If It Fits Your Macros.
            Technically CICO never said anything. It doesn't have a mouth or vocals to make noise.

            As an idea perpetuated by certain PEOPLE, as a sum the majority of these people have presented CICO in the manner that eKatherine said (their "argument").

            Hey the idea can change, and perhaps in seeing the rigidness and inaccuracy of what they previously thought was CICO so it has changed. Thats actually a good thing! It's just a bit confusing to those who actually followed this and know what CICO USE to be implying.

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            • Somewhere in that calories proper site there was a study where they had 3 different rat chows, low-fat, regular and high fat. They fed some rats these chows in powdered form and some in pellet form. Same calories for all 6 groups. The ones that ate powdered chow gained the most weight and the ones that ate the low-fat powdered chow gained the most weight.

              Modern humans are getting most of their calories from powdered foods: flour, sugar, extruded corn flour, soy protein and other various powdered and liquid things.
              Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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              • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                What's that quelsy?

                A quick summary would be, our bodies aren't exempt from the laws of thermodynamics but you also can't say that simply applying a calorie deficit will result in fat loss in all cases. We are far more complicated than that and have many options our bodies can enact to satisfy these laws.


                Sent from my iPhone
                it seems you may be suggesting that attempts to establish conscious control of ones metabolism could derail the process as the subconscious mind attempts to comply
                Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                Predator not Prey
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                • Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  He's not really arguing against CICO per say. He's expanding and talking about nuances of energy expenditure and how it doesn't even out on a daily basis, but more in terms of months and years based on evidence he's presenting from the 1950's! So well within the past hundred years of scientific knowledge you are citing

                  Just further proof that CICO is incalculable and even if it was it wouldn't match up in any meaningful and useful manner.
                  Well, CICO is the mechanic behind energy fluctuations in our bodies and I agree that the individual dieter cannot calculate this exactly down to the minute details. But it is a useful practical tool to use for many dieters, that know how to use it, and it works in a controlled environment which is confirmed more than sufficient on both animals and humans. Then you have those self-reporting individuals that claim that they got fat on only eating 800 calories per day or those that claim that they can maintain their weight on water and sunshine only…
                  "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                  - Schopenhauer

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                  • Then you have those self-reporting individuals that claim that they got fat on only eating 800 calories per day or those that claim that they can maintain their weight on water and sunshine only…
                    OK, lol, people are not animals, but there are literally horses called "air ferns". They tend to stay fat with very limited food. My friends had a horse that was very active- they used him for foxhunting which is the equine equivalent of being a trail runner. He got a handful of grain 2x a day to keep him happy, the same amount of hay other horses get and when he was turned out, he had a muzzle which I would say cut back his grass consumption to less than 25% of an unmuzzled horse. Meanwhile, their other hunt horse got 2 scoops of grain 2 times a day (so probably 10x the amount the air fern got) plus the same amount of hay and unlimited grazing. They were both similarly interested in food.

                    So I believe it when I hear people claim they could not lose weight on 800 calories a day.

                    http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
                    Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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                    • Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                      it seems you may be suggesting that attempts to establish conscious control of ones metabolism could derail the process as the subconscious mind attempts to comply
                      Yeah pretty much. Although our "subconscious complying" doesn't quite sit right as the right explanation. I feel it's more like "as the subconscious goes on responding to stimuli (stressors) like it does for everything and has done for ever".

                      If your lucky enough to provide the stimuli that your subconscious thinks might require the dumping of excess energy reserves then it will do so.



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                      A little primal gem - My Success Story
                      Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                      • Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                        Well, CICO is the mechanic behind energy fluctuations in our bodies and I agree that the individual dieter cannot calculate this exactly down to the minute details. But it is a useful practical tool to use for many dieters, that know how to use it, and it works in a controlled environment which is confirmed more than sufficient on both animals and humans. Then you have those self-reporting individuals that claim that they got fat on only eating 800 calories per day or those that claim that they can maintain their weight on water and sunshine only…
                        Raises hand...


                        however i know i am an outlier
                        Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                        Predator not Prey
                        Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                        CW 315 | SW 506
                        Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                        Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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                        • Originally posted by Finnegans Wake
                          I think I need to appropriate CICO and subvert its meaning before I go mad from seeing it yet again.

                          In this spirit, I propose that CICO now means a nice, satisfying morning dump.

                          I had a delightful CICO, and now I feel like I could run a marathon!
                          was that during a standup scrum meeting
                          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                          Predator not Prey
                          Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                          CW 315 | SW 506
                          Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                          Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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                          • Originally posted by dilberryhoundog View Post
                            Yeah pretty much. Although our "subconscious complying" doesn't quite sit right as the right explanation. I feel it's more like "as the subconscious goes on responding to stimuli (stressors) like it does for everything and has done for ever".

                            If your lucky enough to provide the stimuli that your subconscious thinks might require the dumping of excess energy reserves then it will do so.



                            Sent from my iPhone
                            i must go kel no rheem
                            Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                            Predator not Prey
                            Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                            CW 315 | SW 506
                            Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                            Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

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                            • We have 8 cats. Each gets a different ration amount, measured each mealtime. The largest cat and the smallest cat get the same amount, which is less than 1 fluid ounce twice a day. Of the two that are hyperthyroid, one gets 1/3 of a cup twice a day and is plump, while the other gets half a cup twice a day and is thin, even though they are both on medication for their thyroid issues. The others get about 1/4 cup twice a day. They all get about the same exercise.

                              Feeding time is a challenge.

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                              • Gaining or losing weight is all about energy balance. Consuming more energy than your body needs results in weight gain and doing the opposite results in weight loss. After reading all your posts I came to the conclusion that there are a few different reason why most people lose weight faster on low carbs diets:

                                1) People on low carb diets end up eating less, maybe without even realizing it. This is becasue once you stop eating carbs, you blood sugar isn't constantly rises and falling, causing hunger. (CI changes)

                                2) Low carb diets can fix hormonal problems thereby speeding up your metabolism and allowing weight loss to occur. (CO changes)

                                3) Low carb diets allow you to have more stable energy levels. Without your blood sugar constantly rising and falling throughout the day, some people on low carb diets are able to exercise morre, fidget more, cook more, shop more, play with your kids more, ect. It is nearly impossible to measure how much activity you are doing on a day to day bases. Sure you can measure how many calories you burned on a treadmill but how do you take into account all the others ways that you burn calories throughout the day? You may think that your level of activity stayed constant when trying out different diets but likely it has not. Finally being able to lose weight on a low carb diet, when you plateued on other diets, may be do to the fact that you move more on a low carb diet. You do this without even realizing it. (CO changes)

                                4) Maybe the processing (digestion, extracting) of protein and fats takes more energy than the processing of a typical carb filled diet. I honestly don't think this has much of an impact though. (CO changes)

                                The bottom line is, CICO is the only thing that matters with reguard to weight loss, maintenance, or weight gain.
                                Last edited by Katie14; 07-25-2013, 08:52 AM.

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