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What are the real weight loss benefits of going primal?

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  • #31
    Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
    When I see a "question" by someone who is basing their query on a very specific misinformation or mix of misinformation that is relatively uncommon, a red flag goes up in my mind. The thread starter was intended to start a flame war on "what's wrong with primal" and "CICO works, even if I have to post fake "data" to prove it". It is full of "justify yourself!" attitude, not "I don't quite understand, can somebody pleaseplease help me?" YMMV. Flame trolls love people who are only trying to be helpful.

    Who are you to decide that this forum should nurture trolls?
    I did not come on here to troll. I have actually been following a low carb diet for the past 2 months. I came on this site to get more information about low carb living. I didn't read Mark's book yet but I have read dozens of his blogs. I apologize if my op is worded badly but it isn't my intention to offend anybody or bash his diet. I simply want to understand if this type of diet is really worth it for weight loss and/or weight maintanence if you are not bothered by the increase in hunger on a regular high carb diet

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    • #32
      If after dropping bread and past you did not notice a significant drop in appetite, you will do fine on a conventional approach. Should that change, you always have the option of dropping it.
      My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
      When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

      Comment


      • #33
        Originally posted by noodletoy View Post

        there are plenty of 20-something guys on here ( a few in particular) who insist cico is the only undeniable and irrefutable way to lose weight. before i hit my 40s i agreed. my experience over the last few years has shown me the flaws in this simplistic notion. bodies broken by years of cw nutritional advice don't turn on a dime or respond to changes the same way as a healthy ones do.
        What matters for weight-loss for EVERYBODY, or more precise – to lose energy stored in the body - is to be in a calorie deficit – that’s undeniable, and there are no way to bypass that! I know that a calorie is only a measure for energy, and that everybody must spend more energy than assimilated or used by our bodies. So if the concept of CICO or calories are too difficult to understand, then we can use strict portion control instead and systematically reduce the amount we are eating! Losing weight is always about eating less than our body’s needs, so it is forced to tap into energy deposits stored in the body. True story folks; nobody has ever lost weight by eating more than the body needs to maintain its weight...
        "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

        - Schopenhauer

        Comment


        • #34
          Originally posted by noodletoy View Post

          there are plenty of 20-something guys on here ( a few in particular) who insist cico is the only undeniable and irrefutable way to lose weight. before i hit my 40s i agreed. my experience over the last few years has shown me the flaws in this simplistic notion. bodies broken by years of cw nutritional advice don't turn on a dime or respond to changes the same way as a healthy ones do.
          Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
          I would like to see their n=1 data based on the experiment I outlined earlier or another at least as rigorous.
          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
          I posted two studies that show no advantage of low carb vs. high carb diets when protein is controlled. I have more if you want.
          and this ^^^ is why i don't give 2 shits about the results obtained by males under 30, nor their insistence that eating low-carb/primal is no different for weight loss than any other.

          i have my own n~1 and improved health as personal and very satisfactory proof.
          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

          Ernest Hemingway

          Comment


          • #35
            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
            So if the concept of CICO or calories are too difficult to understand, then we can use strict portion control instead and systematically reduce the amount we are eating!
            your condescension is less than charming. ugh.
            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

            Ernest Hemingway

            Comment


            • #36
              Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
              your condescension is less than charming. ugh.
              Yeah, telling the truth can hit hard sometimes! But there are more than enough of "prophets" telling people to "EAT MOAR!" to lose weight, so listen to them instead...
              "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

              - Schopenhauer

              Comment


              • #37
                Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                What matters for weight-loss for EVERYBODY, or more precise – to lose energy stored in the body - is to be in a calorie deficit – that’s undeniable, and there are no way to bypass that! I know that a calorie is only a measure for energy, and that everybody must spend more energy than assimilated or used by our bodies. So if the concept of CICO or calories are too difficult to understand, then we can use strict portion control instead and systematically reduce the amount we are eating! Losing weight is always about eating less than our body’s needs, so it is forced to tap into energy deposits stored in the body. True story folks; nobody has ever lost weight by eating more than the body needs to maintain its weight...
                CICO worked for me. I gained a bunch by eating too much and then lost a bunch by eating less. Where CICO seems to flounder is for the person that is damaged metabolically. It seems like their bodies fight to keep every ounce of fat, no matter what. When they eat less their metabolisms slow down. It makes it very difficult to drop any weight. Many of these types of people also seem to do better when not only calorie restricting but by limiting carbohydrates. CICO puts a cap on the bottle but ignores that there is something inside.

                Eat real food and move around a lot!
                Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm willing to take.

                Comment


                • #38
                  Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
                  With regard to weight lose, gain, or maintenance, a calorie is a calorie. If you eat at a deficit you will lose weight and if you overeat you will gain weight. It does not matter what the composition of those calories are. The only benefits I see from going primal ( strictly from a weight loss perspective. I am not talking about any other health benefits) are :

                  1)Increased satiety, so you are more likely to naturally eat less

                  2)More of the weight that you lose comes from fat instead of muscle. This preservation of lean mass can probably be accomplished by lifting weights while being in a calorie deficit without going primal.

                  I looked at Mark’s pyramid How to Succeed with the Primal Blueprint | Mark's Daily Apple and he says that if you eat over 150 g of carbs per day you will likely gain weight. If you are counting calories and eating at a deficit, how can you possibly gain weight even if 100% of your calories come from carbs? There are plenty of people following conventional eating plans who are maintaining healthy weights or losing weight. I think mark’s approach is interesting and useful for people who have a lot of trouble with hunger while dieting. But, if you can eat at a deficit without going primal, what weight loss benefit does primal eating give you? Let’s say you have 2 twins who are the same weight and gender and are fed the same amount of calories and exercise the same exact amount. If you feed 1 a high carb diet and the other a low carb (primal) diet, they will both lose the same amount of weight.

                  I don’t mean to disrespect Mark or anyone else who supports him. I just want to see if I am missing something here.
                  Mark acknowledges CICO. Frankly, anyone that doesn't is kidding themselves. Mark's Carbohydrate Curve is satiety-based. He isn't one of these guys that promote the "metabolic advantage" BS lie. Not to speak for him, but I believe he mostly believes that fat is more satiating than carbohydrate, so he thinks if you keep carbs <150g/day, you'll be less likely to overeat and naturally keep calories low.

                  Of course, this isn't entirely true. He supports added fats, which are extremely calorically dense and not satisfying. A potato is far more satisfying than butter. Fat makes you overeat as well, with none of the beneficial metabolic rate increase you get from carbs. Eat sausage and bacon versus pork loin and chicken breast. You are almost guaranteed to consume far more calories worth of sausage and bacon. The REAL way to overeat is to pair fat with carbohydrate since it signals your brain to overconsume. If you're going to eat high carb, make sure to keep fats very low and vice versa to minimize overconsumption.

                  The real satisfying factor is protein. Meats aren't satisfying because of fat content, but because of large quantities of high quality protein. Sirloin is more satisfying than ribeye, chicken breast is more satisfying than chicken thigh. But you're very wrong on the benefits of Primal. The REAL benefits are not weight loss, but rather severely reducing your intake of food toxins and greatly increasing your nutrition. This diet is about nutrient density and toxin elimination. Weight loss is simply a side effect of a healthy diet.
                  Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-22-2013, 10:51 AM.
                  Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

                  Comment


                  • #39
                    Originally posted by Black Timber View Post
                    CICO worked for me. I gained a bunch by eating too much and then lost a bunch by eating less. Where CICO seems to flounder is for the person that is damaged metabolically. It seems like their bodies fight to keep every ounce of fat, no matter what. When they eat less their metabolisms slow down. It makes it very difficult to drop any weight. Many of these types of people also seem to do better when not only calorie restricting but by limiting carbohydrates. CICO puts a cap on the bottle but ignores that there is something inside.

                    Eat real food and move around a lot!
                    Limiting carbohydrates usually also leads to limiting calories by less appetite for food, so CICO still counts...
                    "All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident."

                    - Schopenhauer

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
                      But, if you can eat at a deficit without going primal, what weight loss benefit does primal eating give you?
                      I'm going to answer just this specific question and say, IMO, probably none. Once you are within the healthy weight range for your height, wanting to lose more fat is the opposite of primal. Paleolithic (wo)man wouldn't have been sad about a little padding, they would have seen that extra fat as insurance against starving to death when food was scarce. If you're naturally inclined to low body fat, then a diet of real, whole food may be all it takes to achieve a super lean look. If you're naturally inclined to carry a little insurance, a primal diet may not be enough.

                      Have you looked into something like LeanGains? That is intended to push body fat below what comes naturally. You could do a primal version of it. People do. But it's a different set of rules for a different goal.
                      50yo, 5'3"
                      SW-195
                      CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
                      GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
                        I simply want to understand if this type of diet is really worth it for weight loss and/or weight maintanence if you are not bothered by the increase in hunger on a regular high carb diet
                        I'm pretty uninformed compared to some of these others, but I've had good luck losing body fat and maintaining on both types of diets simply by watching my calories and making sure I'm getting enough protein. However, primal has been much easier for me to control cravings. I'm not sure if there really are other benefits to primal for most people (assuming you're getting enough protein and vitamins on a traditional diet), but controlling cravings is one heck of an advantage when trying to cut or maintain.

                        Some people appear to find some relief from not eating wheat and dairy, but I'm not one of them. Wheat and dairy have never really bothered me, and I've given them up for months and then gone back, and haven't noticed a bit of difference (with the exception that I get cravings when I eat wheat). Hard to believe it really impacts some people like they claim, but it apparently does, and I'm certainly not going to assume they're not telling the truth. However, since these people have such different reactions to food than I do, I don't really concern myself with what works or doesn't work for them.

                        My understanding of primal is that it's not intentionally low carb, just kind of works out that way when you cut back on wheat. I think technically you could eat a ton of fruit, and it would still be primal.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                          What matters for weight-loss for EVERYBODY, or more precise – to lose energy stored in the body - is to be in a calorie deficit – that’s undeniable, and there are no way to bypass that! I know that a calorie is only a measure for energy, and that everybody must spend more energy than assimilated or used by our bodies. So if the concept of CICO or calories are too difficult to understand, then we can use strict portion control instead and systematically reduce the amount we are eating! Losing weight is always about eating less than our body’s needs, so it is forced to tap into energy deposits stored in the body. True story folks; nobody has ever lost weight by eating more than the body needs to maintain its weight...
                          there is too much assumption in that entire statement man. I actually don't think i disagree with your underlying assumptions but i do disagree with the content of this statement.


                          starving ( calorie reduction by any other name) will provoke a loss of mass in the subject for a length of time.

                          The data would seem to indicate that as calorie reduction is prolonged the body compensates by decreasing metabolic function. If we disagree on that point the remainder of the conversation is moot.

                          given the assumption that a given individual has a overage of adipose tissue ( ignoring water mass and lean muscle) and desires to remove it, provoking a short term reliance on that adipose tissue for fuel is AN option for the reduction of the adipose tissue.

                          The embedded assumption is that the adipose tissue in question is loaded with only triglycerides which can be cleaved to provide energy for the body.

                          The data would also seem to indicate that an adipose cell is composed of more than lipids. and if that is the case then one must ask what else is inside and why the organism has stored it in the first place.

                          Unfortunately i cannot find a generalization that works often enough to claim that CICO is the end all be all to weight management.

                          I will say that all things being equal CICO should prevent an overweight situation, however i see no evidence that an overweight situation MUST be resolved following CICO.
                          Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                          Predator not Prey
                          Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                          CW 315 | SW 506
                          Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                          Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
                            Yeah, telling the truth can hit hard sometimes! But there are more than enough of "prophets" telling people to "EAT MOAR!" to lose weight, so listen to them instead...
                            at age 42-43, i was starting to gain weight. never ever had a weight problem -- i had always been slim and active. this was hormonal. obviously. and more maddening that you can possibly imagine to be inhabiting a body in full rebellion. i weighed my food on a digital scale and tracked and kept spread sheets. i tried for months to lose weight with various cw methods, including fasting. please don't continue to insult me by suggesting i'm an idiot and won't be accountable for what goes in my mouth.

                            i found low-carb.

                            i ate the same amount of cals and had the same daily patterns of life.

                            i lost weight and inches.

                            i got much healthier.

                            i found primal.

                            i got healthier still.

                            puhleeze.
                            As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                            Ernest Hemingway

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                              at age 42-43, i was starting to gain weight. never ever had a weight problem -- i had always been slim and active. this was hormonal. obviously. and more madening that you can possibly imagine to be inhabiting a body in full rebellion. i weighed my food on a digital scale and tracked and kept spread sheets. i tried for months to lose weight with various cw methods, including fasting. please don't continue to insult me by suggesting i'm an idiot and won't be accountable for what goes in my mouth.

                              i found low-carb.

                              i ate the same amount of cals and had the same daily patterns of life.

                              i lost weight and inches.

                              i got much healthier.

                              i found primal.

                              i got healthier still.

                              puhleeze.
                              I wont suggest I will infer..... :-)
                              Optimum Health powered by Actualized Self-Knowledge.

                              Predator not Prey
                              Paleo Ketogenic Lifestyle

                              CW 315 | SW 506
                              Current Jeans 46 | Starting Jeans 66


                              Contact me: quelsen@gmail.com

                              Comment


                              • #45
                                Originally posted by quelsen View Post
                                I wont suggest I will infer..... :-)
                                you AND gorbag? lol.
                                As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

                                Ernest Hemingway

                                Comment

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