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What are the real weight loss benefits of going primal?

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  • #16
    Here are two sample days of me eating @ 1500 calories:

    Breakfast- 3 eggs, scrambled with bacon, mushrooms, spinach. 1/2 cup blueberres, coffee with cream
    Lunch- Chicken and asparagus, water
    Dinner- Steak, small sweet potato, butter, spinach

    OR
    Breakfast- eggwhites, low fat cheese, whole grain tortilla, salsa
    Lunch- veggie wrap with low fat cheese
    Dinner- pasta with tomatoe sauce, salad and a roll

    The above is primal, below is typical low fat. I feel like primal is WAY more nutrient dense and the focus on whole foods is really healing compared to straight up caloric restriction. It just works better to eliminate useless filler foods like grains and focus your calories on more satiating and nourishing foods.
    But you do not have to do low fat-high carb version with useless calories like tortillas. You can do a happy mix of fruit, seafood, veggies, tubers, legumes and nutritious non-processed cereals like buckwheat and millet.

    So, it will be more like:

    B: hot millet with pear
    S: apple
    L: shrimps and gazpacho
    D: bean & sweet potato chili, and a HUGE fruit plate...
    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Pacna View Post
      This Diet Works: Eat More, Lose Weight - Netscape Home & Living ("A small but carefully controlled research study conducted by the Harvard School of Public Health concluded that people can eat an extra 300 calories a day when they are on a very low-carbohydrate regimen and lose just as much weight in 12 weeks as people on a standard low-fat diet, reports The Associated Press.")
      Didn't control for protein, therefore it's irrelevant.

      Princeton University - A sweet problem: Princeton researchers find that high-fructose corn syrup prompts considerably more weight gain ("Rats with access to high-fructose corn syrup gained significantly more weight than those with access to table sugar, even when their overall caloric intake was the same.")
      I would like to see the actual study rather than a write up reviewing the study. It doesn't detail the methods of the study and how much HFCS was used. In addition, hepatic de novo lipogenesis occurs way more often in rats than it does with humans, so comparisons of fat gain when giving excess sugar to rats should be taken with a grain of salt.

      All Calories Not Created Equal, Study Suggests ("Low-Fat Eaters Burned Fewer Calories, Were More Likely to Regain Lost Weight")
      I've read the actual study in the past. It's a decent study, but again, in the higher fat group, protein intake is 10% higher. This is significant, and would skew the results drastically.

      And:

      Nutrition Journal | Full text | "A calorie is a calorie" violates the second law of thermodynamics ("as a general principle, 'a calorie is a calorie' violates the second law of thermodynamics.")
      Again, interesting. I would recommend you check out Lyle McDonald's explanation of the question "is a calorie a calorie" as I believe he goes over this study: Is a Calorie a Calorie? | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
        Plenty of people ask about weight loss while eating Primal. The title does not suggest that the OP thinks it's a temporary weight loss diet at all. That's just you constructing a strawman.
        The thread title "What are the real weight loss benefits of going primal" implies that there need to be "weight loss benefits" for primal to be worth doing. The site is also visited regularly by dieters who are looking for a fast and easy weight loss diet.

        The thread starter reads like it was written by a troll who came here to attack "primal". Why do people come here to argue that "primal" is supposed to be a rigidly paleo diet? That isn't anything that is argued anywhere. Red flag.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
          What exactly is paleo. I was under the impression that paleo was a low carb diet as well.
          boards like this are great for questions and parsing stuff out, but i really think it is YOUR responsibility to be better informed on the fundamentals -- which are right here and FREE on this site. mark does recommend a carb curve for losing or maintaining weight but primal is NOT low-carb by its nature.

          Originally posted by sbhikes View Post

          Get it? Can we stop with the CICO madness already?
          there are plenty of 20-something guys on here ( a few in particular) who insist cico is the only undeniable and irrefutable way to lose weight. before i hit my 40s i agreed. my experience over the last few years has shown me the flaws in this simplistic notion. bodies broken by years of cw nutritional advice don't turn on a dime or respond to changes the same way as a healthy ones do.
          As I ate the oysters with their strong taste of the sea and their faint metallic taste that the cold white wine washed away, leaving only the sea taste and the succulent texture, and as I drank their cold liquid from each shell and washed it down with the crisp taste of the wine, I lost the empty feeling and began to be happy and to make plans.

          Ernest Hemingway

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          • #20
            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
            The thread starter reads like it was written by a troll who came here to attack "primal". Why do people come here to argue that "primal" is supposed to be a rigidly paleo diet? That isn't anything that is argued anywhere. Red flag.
            Maybe it reads like that to you? I don't know, I guess I just don't assume that someone's priority is to bash the diet. Maybe the person is just looking for information, that's what people do on forums. Who are you to assume someone's motives for asking a valid question?
            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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            • #21
              Honestly, IMO, the biggest benefit of Primal and Paleo is the elimination of junk foods. And as we get more and more "paleo brownies" and "paleo buns" and "paleo ice cream" and "paleo pizza crust" available at stores, it will become less effective. By eliminating grains and sugar, you eliminate the ability to eat the kinds of food people overeat. And double that if you also eliminate things like rice and potatoes.

              It's kind of like becoming a vegan. Works great at first when you eliminate meat and eat salads. Then you add in veggie burgers and figure out the fries at McDonald's are vegan. Then you find Soy Ice Cream. Next thing you know, you've recreated SAD with soy products.

              It's VERY hard to recreate SAD out of paleo products at this point.

              http://maggiesfeast.wordpress.com/
              Check out my blog. Hope to share lots of great recipes and ideas!

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              • #22
                Originally posted by noodletoy View Post
                there are plenty of 20-something guys on here ( a few in particular) who insist cico is the only undeniable and irrefutable way to lose weight.
                I would like to see their n=1 data based on the experiment I outlined earlier or another at least as rigorous.

                Comment


                • #23
                  Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                  Maybe it reads like that to you? I don't know, I guess I just don't assume that someone's priority is to bash the diet. Maybe the person is just looking for information, that's what people do on forums. Who are you to assume someone's motives for asking a valid question?
                  When I see a "question" by someone who is basing their query on a very specific misinformation or mix of misinformation that is relatively uncommon, a red flag goes up in my mind. The thread starter was intended to start a flame war on "what's wrong with primal" and "CICO works, even if I have to post fake "data" to prove it". It is full of "justify yourself!" attitude, not "I don't quite understand, can somebody pleaseplease help me?" YMMV. Flame trolls love people who are only trying to be helpful.

                  Who are you to decide that this forum should nurture trolls?

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                  • #24
                    Honestly, IMO, the biggest benefit of Primal and Paleo is the elimination of junk foods. And as we get more and more "paleo brownies" and "paleo buns" and "paleo ice cream" and "paleo pizza crust" available at stores, it will become less effective. By eliminating grains and sugar, you eliminate the ability to eat the kinds of food people overeat. And double that if you also eliminate things like rice and potatoes.
                    Doesn't have to be paleo ice cream. Almond butter will do. Roast chicken. Bacon, if you love it. Any food that doesn't satiate your particular body will work that way....
                    My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                    When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                    Comment


                    • #25
                      Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                      The experiment is so easy to run that I am surprised no one seems to have run it on themselves.

                      The easiest way to do this is to keep exercise constant through the duration of any feeding phases of the experiment.

                      Record and track everything. Weight should be taken daily, measurements weekly, including body fat. All daily menus should be planned in advance to keep your intake of macros on target. All food should be accurately weighed or measured. Record all foods eaten for future reference. Record exercise, too. Other parameters may come in useful: sleep, FBS, ketones, etc.

                      Planning: Set a goal level of protein that you will maintain throughout the experiment. Set initial carb and fat targets. Also differentiate carbs between starches and sugars when collecting data.

                      Phase 1: Establish your RDI by estimating your probable required calorie intake. Maintain this level for a week, then adjust as needed. When your weight is stable (for a week, two is better) you are ready to move on to the next phase.

                      Phase 2: Now cut back your calories to a target below your calculated RDI which is calculated to result in 1-2 pounds of weight loss per week. Keep your protein intake constant while varying your carb vs fat ratio. Do two weeks each of moderate (50:50 carb and fat calories), VLC, and very low fat. Also, do two weeks each where you attempt to get all of the carb calories from starch, and another where all of them come from fruit.

                      A month would be better, if you have the patience and the weight to lose. Or you could just keep repeating the experiment until you have reached your weight loss goal.

                      Of course, by the time you finish Phase 2 of this experiment you will have the data necessary to test any sort of diet, macro, or exercise variation or hack that you see, or to reproduce any experiment you read about.

                      I'm looking forward to reading your data.

                      Note: if, as the thread title suggests, you see the sole purpose of primal to be as a temporary weight loss diet, I think most people would agree that you needn't bother.
                      Are you saying that the processing of protein and fat burns more calories than the processing of carbs? Is that why you think I would lose more weight eating a low carb diet versus a regular diet even if calories and exercise are kept constant?

                      I think that most people don't count calories (or if they do many don't count correctly) while dieting. So it is difficult to know if people lose more weight because of actually eating less calories or because eating less carbs somehow burned more calories. Maybe being on a low carb diet causes energy levels to increase. So dieters subconciously move more throughout the day, thereby burning more calories.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                        Who are you to decide that this forum should nurture trolls?
                        Never said that. Stop putting words in my mouth.

                        Also, you sure did a great job explaining the correct position (not). At least post information that will be helpful to someone, even if it's not the OP. All you do is make assumptions and create weird scenarios. Lol.
                        My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                          I would recommend you check out Lyle McDonald's explanation of the question "is a calorie a calorie" as I believe he goes over this study: Is a Calorie a Calorie? | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
                          Very interesting; thanks for sharing (and for responding to my post).

                          Comment


                          • #28
                            Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                            I would like to see their n=1 data based on the experiment I outlined earlier or another at least as rigorous.
                            I posted two studies that show no advantage of low carb vs. high carb diets when protein is controlled. I have more if you want.
                            My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                            • #29
                              Katie, it is very individual, that is why self-experimentation as eKatherine is suggested. In self-reporting the data, the same systemic errors will persist on any carb diet. So, you will be able to compare food intake roughly, averaged over a few weeks to one another, as well as energy & well-being levels and the will to resist natural overeating.
                              My Journal: http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum/thread57916.html
                              When I let go of what I am, I become what I might be.

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Weight is only one measurement of metabolic health and function.... and its not even a good one at that. Quality of matter ingested dictates your bodies ability to maintain homeostasis. You can be fat and perfectly healthy. You can be thin and be a metabolic mess. This is not a diet, nor should your weight be of primary concern. It is only one of a million markers. So OP's entire post is a non-sequitur in my opinion.

                                If OP wants to argue "strictly" weight loss then its easy. Stop eating. Best weight loss method on the planet. Bar none.
                                Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-22-2013, 10:24 AM.

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