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  • #31
    Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
    What's your reasoning behind this?
    In short, because it balances out the increase in adrenaline when taking caffeine.

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    • #32
      Originally posted by dmccall4 View Post
      I wish I woke up energetic instead of needing a lift/boost. Instead I drag and I'm foggy until coffee then I drink it and I'm wired and anxious. I'm tired of the crazy cycle.
      As I said, what's coffee got to do with it? The fact that you wake up with brain fog and no energy came first, and not having coffee will have exactly what effect on that?

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      • #33
        Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
        I CAN wake up without it(do everyday infact), I don't get headaches without it, nor am I 'cranky' in it's absence. I drink it perhaps once or twice a day, though went one week without it this month. Does this still mean it's a drug? Because it doesn't seem that I'm addicted to it.

        Your junkie analogy helps NO-ONE, other than to be sensationalist. A habit is different from an addiction, might I add.

        Now, what I have been trying to get across to the OP is that her issues probably lie elsewhere away from coffee. If she feels shit with it, by all means don't drink it. But her context is different from mine, and thus your drug and junkie analogy is actually just callous generalising, or spreading bullshit as i like to put it. Op needs to take coffee out of the equation because her health quandry has nothing to do with it.
        That's *your* experience with it and so, *for you* it is not a problem.
        The OP obviously does have a problem with it, as do a lot of people.
        Calling addiction out for what it is is not being sensationalist. It is being realistic. A wake up call to those who let a substance rule their worlds. Yes, I know that habit and physical addition are two different things. Caffeine qualifies as an addictive substance.
        Some people can do an occasional line of blow at a party and not be addicted at all while others turn into coke heads. The substance is addictive. There are variations in the individual's reaction to it. Same with coffee.
        What is the harm in the OP trying decaffeinating to see if this is the culprit?
        Why are you so adamant that the problem is elsewhere? You are hearing hoofbeats and thinking zebras instead of horses.

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        • #34
          You are so oblivious to what the OP is actually saying that I'm astounded.

          I wish I woke up energetic instead of needing a lift/boost. Instead I drag and I'm foggy until coffee then I drink it and I'm wired and anxious. I'm tired of the crazy cycle.
          What has this got to do with coffee? What has this got to do with drinking coffee, stopping drinking coffee, drinking coffee decaffeinated?

          She explicitly tells us that she wakes up with

          a) No energy.
          b) Foggy.

          She then drinks coffee and feels wired and anxious. The problem comes before coffee, in that she feels the need to consume something to take her out of her lethargy. THAT is where the initial problem lies, and has F-all to do with coffee. Hence why I am adamant she looks elsewhere, like why she wakes up feeling like that in the first place. She can cut coffee if she likes, but the core of the problem is not that.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            That's *your* experience with it and so, *for you* it is not a problem.
            Which is what I actually wrote, hence finding your junkie analogy retarded.

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            • #36
              i started a thread a short while ago which is poss a few pages back about caffeine addiction. i actual agree with PB on this one. it is an addictive substance and i will be the first to admit i am an addict. funny thing is i always say i have an addictive personality but i can take or leave alcohol and cigarettes and the more nefarious substances. as in i can binge smoke, social smoke or not have any for months if not years. but caffeine. i struggle to deal with life without. and it's not the hiding behind a cup of coffee and it's not suddenly everything being fine when i have a cup of coffee. i was prob too caffeinated up to ever notice any ups and downs. but more i have a total brain fog now. i cant concentrate, i forget things. my brain is needing to work out how to function without caffeine as it has done it for an incredibly long long time. i am all of 30 days in now. woohoo!!! i am sorta getting the will to live back but i am doping myself up with L-tyrosine which is a precursor to dopamine. i read somewhere about caffeine and dopamine. i still havent got my head around it but it is a huge piece in the puzzle for me. and it is also a cumulative thing, caffeine has slowly become more and more of an addiction as i have gotten older and the way it has effected me has changed.

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
                You are so oblivious to what the OP is actually saying that I'm astounded.

                OP quote:"I wish I woke up energetic instead of needing a lift/boost. Instead I drag and I'm foggy until coffee then I drink it and I'm wired and anxious. I'm tired of the crazy cycle."

                What has this got to do with coffee? What has this got to do with drinking coffee, stopping drinking coffee, drinking coffee decaffeinated?

                She explicitly tells us that she wakes up with
                a) No energy.
                b) Foggy.

                She then drinks coffee and feels wired and anxious. The problem comes before coffee, in that she feels the need to consume something to take her out of her lethargy. THAT is where the initial problem lies, and has F-all to do with coffee. Hence why I am adamant she looks elsewhere, like why she wakes up feeling like that in the first place. She can cut coffee if she likes, but the core of the problem is not that.
                The "problem" she is feeling in the morning is the lack of coffee. It's called Jones-ing for a fix.

                Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
                Which is what I actually wrote, hence finding your junkie analogy retarded.
                I find using a derogatory word for a developmental disability as an insult to be offensive and juvenile.

                Originally posted by seaweed View Post
                i started a thread a short while ago which is poss a few pages back about caffeine addiction. i actual agree with PB on this one. it is an addictive substance and i will be the first to admit i am an addict. funny thing is i always say i have an addictive personality but i can take or leave alcohol and cigarettes and the more nefarious substances. as in i can binge smoke, social smoke or not have any for months if not years. but caffeine. i struggle to deal with life without. and it's not the hiding behind a cup of coffee and it's not suddenly everything being fine when i have a cup of coffee. i was prob too caffeinated up to ever notice any ups and downs. but more i have a total brain fog now. i cant concentrate, i forget things. my brain is needing to work out how to function without caffeine as it has done it for an incredibly long long time. i am all of 30 days in now. woohoo!!! i am sorta getting the will to live back but i am doping myself up with L-tyrosine which is a precursor to dopamine. i read somewhere about caffeine and dopamine. i still havent got my head around it but it is a huge piece in the puzzle for me. and it is also a cumulative thing, caffeine has slowly become more and more of an addiction as i have gotten older and the way it has effected me has changed.
                Congratulations on taking control of your life back. I think this cumulative effect over the years happens to a lot of people. They were fine with it when they were younger but then it sneaks up on them and does a lot of damage before they realize it.

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                • #38
                  Congratulations on taking control of your life back. I think this cumulative effect over the years happens to a lot of people. They were fine with it when they were younger but then it sneaks up on them and does a lot of damage before they realize it.
                  LOL well i would say it is a very thin veneer of control! it's only i am too obstinate to give in now i have gotten this far and i actual cant see a way i can moderate. still working on the dopamine theory here but i do wonder if caffeine can alter how your dopamine receptors form even? kinda like you're not sposed to smoke weed till you are 18 or some other age as your brain is still developing.

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                  • #39
                    Interesting theory. I do know that any time any one receptor is hit over and over chronically for years, there is a weakening in the ability of the body to respond properly.
                    Ex: higher carb advocates keep pointing out that insulin spikes are perfectly normal and not harmful and they are right. It is the chronic, long term elevation of insulin that causes the receptor to malfunction. I read the analogy somewhere about turning on a light switch every day using a hammer. Eventually the switch is going to wear out.

                    My theory is that the same thing happens with caffeine. You pound the switch on every day and then, as you get older, you need to hit it harder and harder to get the same effect as cracks start to form. Eventually you end up with adrenal fatigue.

                    Comment


                    • #40
                      Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                      The "problem" she is feeling in the morning is the lack of coffee. It's called Jones-ing for a fix.
                      Hence why she needs to look at why she needs it to wake up. The not being in a good state upon waking is a clue. You seem to imply her complete lack of morning energy is somehow connected to the coffee. I'm saying for the last time that she needs to broaden her horizon by alot, because the lack of energy is irrelated to a need of coffee, but the need of coffee is indicating something to her. Whether or not coffee is addictive for her, it's pretty irrelevant to the first issue which is poor energy and therefore a skewed metabolism.

                      I find using a derogatory word for a developmental disability as an insult to be offensive and juvenile.
                      I'm sure you'll get over it. Your junkie analogy is retarded though(i.e - underdeveloped).

                      Comment


                      • #41
                        Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
                        Hence why she needs to look at why she needs it to wake up. The not being in a good state upon waking is a clue. You seem to imply her complete lack of morning energy is somehow connected to the coffee. I'm saying for the last time that she needs to broaden her horizon by alot, because the lack of energy is irrelated to a need of coffee, but the need of coffee is indicating something to her. Whether or not coffee is addictive for her, it's pretty irrelevant to the first issue which is poor energy and therefore a skewed metabolism.



                        I'm sure you'll get over it. Your junkie analogy is retarded though(i.e - underdeveloped).
                        If she had never been a coffee drinker and then suddenly felt lethargic and foggy in the morning, I would agree with you that there could be many health conditions, nutritional deficiencies, etc. that could be to blame. But she herself states that the problem is the "crazy cycle" of needing a lift from the coffee and then getting jittery from it. Why do you not take her at her word?

                        I'm sure you will get over being juvenile. It takes some people longer than others.

                        Comment


                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Rocco Hill View Post
                          I CAN wake up without it(do everyday infact), I don't get headaches without it, nor am I 'cranky' in it's absence. I drink it perhaps once or twice a day, though went one week without it this month. Does this still mean it's a drug? Because it doesn't seem that I'm addicted to it.

                          Your junkie analogy helps NO-ONE, other than to be sensationalist. A habit is different from an addiction, might I add.

                          Now, what I have been trying to get across to the OP is that her issues probably lie elsewhere away from coffee. If she feels shit with it, by all means don't drink it. But her context is different from mine, and thus your drug and junkie analogy is actually just callous generalising, or spreading bullshit as i like to put it. Op needs to take coffee out of the equation because her health quandry has nothing to do with it.
                          Well of course its a drug and as such has the capacity to be addictive and/or abused. You don't have withdraw symptoms and don't believe yourself to be addicted. Super! Me either! However, that doesn't change the facts.

                          Comment


                          • #43
                            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                            Derp's idea of convincing scientific research to rationalize his two pack a day habit:

                            Nitric oxide mediates a therapeutic effect of nicotine in ulcerative colitis - Green - 2001 - Alimentary Pharmacology & Therapeutics - Wiley Online Library
                            This is about nicotine being used as a drug to treat colitis in a topical application, not even about smoking.

                            Recurrent aphthous stomatitis and smoking - T[]z[]n - 2001 - International Journal of Dermatology - Wiley Online LibraryThis one is about canker sores. Sure smoking probably does blast the little buggers out of your mouth. It will give you mouth cancer but at least you won't have canker sores.

                            http://www.data-yard.net/10v2/parkinson.htm"It is not our intent to promote smoking as a protective measure against Parkinson's disease," Evan L. Thacker from Harvard School of Public Health emphasized in comments to Reuters Health. "Obviously smoking has a multitude of negative consequences. Rather, we did this study to try to encourage other scientists...to consider the possibility that neuroprotective chemicals may be present in tobacco leaves. Studies to determine if, in fact, there are neuroprotective compounds in tobacco are warranted, the researchers say. The observation that smokeless tobacco users also have a lower risk of Parkinson's disease suggests that the most likely candidates are not compounds generated by combustion, but rather constituents of the tobacco leaves."
                            I'm all for using compounds found in tobacco in medicine. That is not the same thing as a two pack a day habit.

                            http://www.data-yard.net/30/asthma.htmThis one is conclusive about absolutely nothing. "There is a need for further studies with a prospective design to certify the causal direction of this association."

                            http://www.data-yard.net/10c/nicotine.htmAgain, about IV nicotine used to kill TB cells. Hooray. "It worked even when used in doses smaller than what's found in a single cigarette. Naser said such small quantities are not likely to cause addiction. But no one is suggesting that people with TB take up the potentially deadly habit of smoking"

                            http://www.data-yard.net/10b/cm.htmThis one isn't even about smoking, it's about the potential use of carbon monoxide as an emergency measure to break up blood clots. "This research is very preliminary. For all practical purposes, the gas remains a killer, so don't throw out your carbon monoxide detector just yet. (You do have a detector, don't you?)" Diggin deep there, Derp.

                            FORCES International - ArchiveThis one is about women with the BRCA mutation`Smoking may reduce breast cancer risk for these women, but cigarettes sharply increase the incidence of other cancers,'' said Jean-Sebastien Brunet, lead author of a study being published Wednesday in the Journal of the National Cancer Institute.
                            ``This study is interesting scientifically, but it should not encourage anyone to smoke,'' Some breast cancers have been linked to estrogen, the female hormone, and cigarette smoking is known to lower production of estrogen" There are better ways to lower your estrogen than giving yourself lung cancer.

                            http://www.data-yard.net/13/tlj.htmThis one is a preliminary report about using a nicotine patch to try to improve cognition in people with Down's syndrome and had a sample size of FIVE people. Real impressive.

                            Derp, if you choose to commit suicide on the installment plan by smoking, no amount of logic is going to stop you. Just don't try to pass it off as "healthy" by any stretch of the imagination. Even your "research" doesn't support it.
                            Way to look at the picture through a pinhole. What do all those things have in common? You should be able to put it together. Here's more:



                            ". . . cigarette smoking has been found to be negatively associated
                            with thyroid cancer (29–33)."

                            ". . . nicotine was shown to downregulate prolactin gene expression
                            (40). Baseline prolactin levels are thus lower in chronic smokers than
                            non-smokers (41, 42)."

                            "Higher levels of androstenedione and dehydroepiandrosterone sulfate
                            (DHEAS) are found in smokers (62–65)."

                            "Free testosterone levels have also been found to be higher among
                            smokers (41, 91, 92, 94, 95)."

                            "Though TSH levels have been reported to be lower in smokers in a few
                            studies (3–5), others have not found this effect (6)."

                            Smoking and hormones in health and endocrine disorders

                            Smoking brain scans - Stock Image M370/0778 - enlarged - Science Photo Library

                            And a really good thread:

                            Smoking is good for you! - Lifestyle - LONGECITY

                            And calling coffee a drug, or an addiction is being a sensationalist, it's simply untrue and on the level of most CW drivel you would find on Dr. Oz. The fact you, or someone else thinks it's an addiction is only a testament of your own willpower and problem -- not the substance, of in caffeine's case, the nutrient.

                            "The fact that a taste of chocolate can provoke a wild lust for more chocolate, or that once cigarette renews the addiction, does not mean that the presence of chocolate or nicotine in the blood creates a craving. Rather, it is that an organism in an unstable state perceives the availability of something which promises to partially restore the desired stability."

                            FYI, not that it matters in the slightest, but I don't smoke 2 packs a day. I don't even know where you came up with this number besides a baseless ASSumption and an attempt to give credit to your argument by making up some bullshit.
                            Last edited by Derpamix; 07-22-2013, 04:32 PM.
                            Make America Great Again

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                            • #44
                              The thing with coffee that I have noticed it that people get so charged up over it! The whole "I couldn't live without my coffee!" Suggests to me that it IS an addictive substance which doesn't mean it is addictive to everyone... My issue with coffee is that I get physiologically addicted to it (but not psychologically). In other words I can quit it easily but get awful headaches when I do (which begs the question of why I start drinking it again after a time off it... And I don't really know the answer to that except that I feel like it).

                              Anyway I agree that when someone wakes up foggy and lethargic and needs caffeine to get them going it seems as if they have a problem with caffeine addiction! (Like a junkie needs a fix ?!) and thus, quitting the habit is probably a good idea. I don't buy that the problem is independent from the caffeine, at least without any evidence to prove it is). The problem is that the argument is over cause vs effect which is something that's not easy to diagnose ... At least not by a bunch of people on an Internet forum.

                              I tend to think,though, that if you feel that you can't live without coffee, it's probably time you tried to! Just reminds me of those people who swear they'd die if they couldn't eat bread or pasta again... Ho hum...

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