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  • #61
    Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
    Because there is no scientific basis upon which to claim a low carbohydrate diet would somehow injure or maim the thyroid. Its a meme that needs to die. Actually the adrenal portion may hold a tid bit of biochemical plausibility. The thyroid bit though is just getting old. Too many people are buying into it and its completely rubbish.
    +1
    Here (again!):
    Low-Carb Diets and T3: A False Alarm | A Worldly Monk
    Carbohydrate Restriction as an Adjunct Treatment for Hypothyroidism | A Worldly Monk
    Ancestral Nutrition Coaching
    Pregnancy Nutrition Coaching
    Primal Pregnancy Nutrition Article

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    • #62
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Because there is no scientific basis upon which to claim a low carbohydrate diet would somehow injure or maim the thyroid. Its a meme that needs to die. Actually the adrenal portion may hold a tid bit of biochemical plausibility. The thyroid bit though is just getting old. Too many people are buying into it and its completely rubbish.
      Thank you. however, does the anecdotal evidence not count? I've read numerous posts on this forum about people who've gone VLC over long periods and suffered the symptoms of thyroid dysfunction like rapid hair loss, increased cold sensitivity and susceptibility to stress. We could put this down to people 'not doing the diet right' but how many people need suffer these consequences before we start questioning the validity of their problems on the diet?
      Ones who try my curry are not ones to leave in a hurry

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      • #63
        There is obviously a subset of people that do not do well on VLC. Not really a debate there. Its true of every macro variance. However, if we really want to know why people are having trouble implementing VLC we gotta look at feesible mechanisms. Of which "damaging the thyroid" is not. So I have no problem with the "I don't do well on VLC so I added carbs".... I do have a problem with "VLC hurt my thyroid so I added carbs".... see the difference? One leaves room for interpretation of a variety of mechanisms while the other makes an assertion that is not backed up by the evidence
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-22-2013, 06:03 PM.

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        • #64
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          There is obviously a subset of people that do not do well on VLC. Not really a debate there. Its true of every macro variance. However, if we really want to know why people are having trouble implementing VLC we gotta look at feesible mechanisms. Of which "damaging the thyroid" is not. So I have no problem with the "I don't do well on VLC so I added carbs".... I do have a problem with "VLC hurt my thyroid so I added carbs".... see the difference? One leaves room for interpretation of a variety of mechanisms while the other makes an assertion that is not backed up by the evidence
          Gotcha.
          Ones who try my curry are not ones to leave in a hurry

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
            I have been on the standard keto diet for 4 weeks now (20 carbs or less per day) but have been eating less than 50 carbs per day for a total of 2 months. I am still dealing with "keto flu" symptoms. I am very tired, my muscles feel sort of achy and weak, I feel this strange pressure in the front of my head, I am having trouble concentrating, and I just feel kind of stupid. I also have this weird hunger sensation almost all the time. My stomach isn’t growling or anything, I am not actually hungry, I just feel this need to eat and am never truly satiated. I can’t really explain it but its not a very pleasant feeling. Its strange because there where some points throughout this transition when I have felt significantly better but most of the time I just feel like ****.

            I take a multivitamin every day which contains magnesium and iodine. I eat a lot of spinach and poultry so my potassium levels should be ok. I add some salt when I cook my food. I am also trying to drink a lot of water and I make sure to consume saturated fat a few times per day. I do 3 full body lifting workouts and about 3 hours of low-moderate intensity cardio per week. The program I am following has 1 heavy day, 1 medium and 1 light day per week. I am 5’1 and 104 pounds and am eating 1450 calories per day. My macros are: 58.5/36/5.5 (Fat, protein, carbs).

            My fear is that I may have accidently gone over on carbs (around 40-50 grams per day instead of <20) 2 weekends ago because I was eating in restaurants. I read that if you have too many carbs one time you have to start the induction phase all over again.

            Does anyone have any thoughts about what I am doing wrong or personal experiences about how you felt while adapting?

            Thank for reading!
            You've described some of the classic symptoms of overtraining.

            Lifting once a week will maintain muscle mass in someone your age, and the cardio is a complete waste of time. Substitute one MAYBE two HIIT sessions for the cardio.

            Also, anyone who's training with a low-carb diet should read "The Art and Science of Low Carbohydrate Performance" by Stephen Phinney and Jeff Volek.

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            • #66
              If you've found an easy way for this to be done, outside of complete beginners, please bless us with your knowledge.
              Follow the Primal blueprint, coming from a junk food/malnourished-and-overweight lifestyle, eat beyond satiety always, IF daily and lift heavy/bodyweight stuff intermittently so your muscles have time to grow. Always eat too much meat. And then a little more. Seriously, that is probably the hugest key to unlocking good body comp. Gains will plateau, but muscles will grow as fat vanishes. That was my experience, anyway.

              If you are already healthy-ish, then it might not work. But when you go from macaroni and cheese and spaghetti to steak and salmon, body repair is inevitable.
              Crohn's, doing SCD

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              • #67
                Well, if we were all to follow the wizened advice of our meta-analysis researcher extraordinaire Mr. Sisson we would not be VLC. He does not advise it long term. For anyone. Hmm... I do wonder why. Don't forget that Taubs wrote about the research surrounding VLC for weight loss, not overall health. He also said that bed rest was better than exercise for weight loss. Additionally, I ask, what traditional tribes are VLC? Inuit? Don't forget they have arctic tubers and berries for part of the yr. Are your ancestors Inuit? Perhaps then it might be a good idea.

                I agree with Sisson and Stefani Re fasting. Paleo for Women | Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature
                Paleo for Women | Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature


                One last request, can we keep our conversations civil even if we disagree? Thanks.
                Notebook of a Nutrition Nerd

                ‘THE FOOD YOU EAT CAN BE THE SAFEST AND MOST POWERFUL FORM OF MEDICINE OR THE SLOWEST RELEASING POISON' - Dr Ann Wigmore.

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                • #68
                  Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                  If you are already healthy-ish, then it might not work. But when you go from macaroni and cheese and spaghetti to steak and salmon, body repair is inevitable.
                  You should have made this caveat when you wrote the original post. Of course you will see vast improvements if you go from completely horrible and inadequate nutrition and no exercise to quality nutrition and exercise. No one is arguing against this.
                  My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                  • #69
                    Originally posted by me2 View Post
                    Oh lawd don't do it sister. I thought ketosis was a grand idea, until it totally messed up my thyroid and I WAS TIRED ALL THE TIME. Sound familiar? Yeah for real our ladyparts need the carbs. and enjoy them. Paleo for Women | Carbohydrates for Fertility and Health
                    Agreed. My experience pretty much mirrors what you are describing. And thanks for that article. I'm not sure why she chooses to advocate for glucose mostly, but I still agree with the overall premise.

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                    • #70
                      Originally posted by me2 View Post
                      Well, if we were all to follow the wizened advice of our meta-analysis researcher extraordinaire Mr. Sisson we would not be VLC. He does not advise it long term. For anyone. Hmm... I do wonder why. Don't forget that Taubs wrote about the research surrounding VLC for weight loss, not overall health. He also said that bed rest was better than exercise for weight loss. Additionally, I ask, what traditional tribes are VLC? Inuit? Don't forget they have arctic tubers and berries for part of the yr. Are your ancestors Inuit? Perhaps then it might be a good idea.

                      I agree with Sisson and Stefani Re fasting. Paleo for Women | Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature
                      Paleo for Women | Shattering the Myth of Fasting for Women: A Review of Female-Specific Responses to Fasting in the Literature


                      One last request, can we keep our conversations civil even if we disagree? Thanks.
                      Now sarcasm isn't civil! Geee whiz!

                      Anyway I was pointing out one specific mechanism and what I believe to be an incorrect assumption in regards to low carb and thyroid health. It seems your expanding this to everyone and every circumstance everywhere. I don't know who said that ketosis is key for every one in every circumstance, but I'm pretty sure it wasn't me. I made a very deliberate point about just one aspect of low carb.

                      Far as women and fasting, its probably only as variable as any single individual response and health status when attempting IF. Pklopp actually wrote a good response to that article you link. You should give it a read. Seems the insulin resistance of the two genders where a huge confounder in at least one of those major studies on humans.
                      Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-24-2013, 10:35 AM.

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                      • #71
                        You should have made this caveat when you wrote the original post. Of course you will see vast improvements if you go from completely horrible and inadequate nutrition and no exercise to quality nutrition and exercise. No one is arguing against this.
                        Not sure if you are apologizing or genuflecting, but I'll accept either.
                        Crohn's, doing SCD

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                        • #72
                          Originally posted by Knifegill View Post
                          Not sure if you are apologizing or genuflecting, but I'll accept either.
                          Lol, neither.
                          My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                          • #73
                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            If you've found an easy way for this to be done, outside of complete beginners, please bless us with your knowledge.
                            This might be a quiet little corner of the forums to drop my fitness theory bombs, you JJ and NH and knifegill are fairly free thinkin dudes, so you's might give be able to give em some consideration.

                            I think most of the CW fitness protocols these days come from pro lifters/ bodybuilders tweaking and refining over the last 30 years. In regards to "you can't lose fat and gain muscle at the same time" that statement has definitely come out of those camps. The reason is by eating big you gain (IMO) probably about 10%-20% better muscle building results over some one who doesn't. so naturally all the pro's tried to keep up with each other and they all ate big one thing lead to another until... today you get most pro and amateurs alike thinking that you "HAVE" to eat big to build muscle, I think this is false, it is only makes hypertrophy faster, not impossible.

                            Another big factor in ones ability to burn fat while building muscle (IMO) is also due to pro level protocols permeating down into CW and amateur protocols. What i believe is today about 90% of amateur lifters/builders lift far to often. from my N=1 and abit of other knowledge seeking, it seems to me that; despite the particular event that caused us to hypertrophy , the building of new muscle happens at exactly the same speed. the only difference comes in how long your body builds muscle for, after an event. to illustrate if i get down and do twenty pushups (about my limit) my body might build muscle for a day after after it has recovered. If i do 3 massive reps of as much as i can handle in a bench press after recovery I might build muscle for 5 days after. tho in both of these cases I believe the muscle is built at the same speed, for the big Bench Press you get more muscle because your body built for longer.
                            So in a week we have a finite muscle building amount regardless of stress input or recovery time. If you've given your body a big stress event that caused it to build muscle for the whole week, adding more stress events won't build that muscle any faster, all you are doing is giving your self is a large requirement for extra calories. I also believe in this case, recovery time and time building muscle after the stress event can be vastly different. ie you might recover from the big bench press set after 2 days and could do it again after those 2 days without chronic troubles, but for that same event, muscle building might still be going on after a week.
                            So here we end up with lots of amateurs lifting all week, causing their bodies to go wild on the calories,wich then has a negative effect on fat loss, and still only building muscle at a certain speed.

                            This is my N=1. I do a big event (really tax my body) for each muscle group (push, pull, legs) usually on or around the same day and that's it. For the rest of the week I stick my feet up and relax. Usually for a few days after the big lifts, while im recovering from them, I eat big because my body forces me to (to replenish). After about 2-3 days is up, I'm fully recovered and could go again with more lifts, but I don't, I just sit around because I know I'm still building muscle behind the scenes. In this window, after I've recovered and before the end of the week, I muck around with calories and fasts, if I feel like losing fat that week. so at the end of the week I can end up gaining muscle and losing fat. The only thing is I'm probably not building as fast as other more serious amateurs but i don't think it is by much, I also don't know how much of a noob lifter I am, been mucking around for six months and can still lose fat and gain muscle if I want to.
                            A little primal gem - My Success Story
                            Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                            • #74
                              Okay, sorry. Just trying to help really. Let's leave it at me sharing my n=1 experience. It was quite horrid taking to my bed on a regular basis due to low energy. I dropped my friends. My basal temps were in the 96 range. I had crippling menstrual cramps. Then i ate primal carbs again, and my temps went up, my cramps went to a tolerable level and I have friends again. You decide what right my dear, just listen to what your body is telling you.

                              Sent from my SCH-I535 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app
                              Notebook of a Nutrition Nerd

                              ‘THE FOOD YOU EAT CAN BE THE SAFEST AND MOST POWERFUL FORM OF MEDICINE OR THE SLOWEST RELEASING POISON' - Dr Ann Wigmore.

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                              • #75
                                Also I agree with my frienemy, you should read this. Out explains both our viewpoints http://www.bodyrecomposition.com/nut...-you-need.html

                                Sent from my SCH-I535 using Marks Daily Apple Forum mobile app
                                Notebook of a Nutrition Nerd

                                ‘THE FOOD YOU EAT CAN BE THE SAFEST AND MOST POWERFUL FORM OF MEDICINE OR THE SLOWEST RELEASING POISON' - Dr Ann Wigmore.

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