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How am I still not fat adapted?!

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  • #31
    Originally posted by peril View Post
    On what do you base your opinion? Have a look at the blog I referenced (pklopp is a valued member here) then come back and opine. You're still not thinking before you post
    On what do you base your opinion? You made the statement that someone is eating too often, which is inhibiting fat burning. On what basis do you make such a claim? What evidence do you have that meal frequency has any impact on fat burning in isocaloric conditions?

    It seems that you are more interested in getting a rise out of me (saying I'm not thinking before I post, just like the other thread) rather than actually having the decency to respond with a coherent argument. For someone who is so experienced on this forum, I would have expected a bit more.
    My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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    • #32
      I wouldn't worry about it. I never show ketones in urine or blood, either. It's no holy grail, as fun as it is.
      Crohn's, doing SCD

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      • #33
        Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
        On what do you base your opinion? You made the statement that someone is eating too often, which is inhibiting fat burning. On what basis do you make such a claim? What evidence do you have that meal frequency has any impact on fat burning in isocaloric conditions?

        It seems that you are more interested in getting a rise out of me (saying I'm not thinking before I post, just like the other thread) rather than actually having the decency to respond with a coherent argument. For someone who is so experienced on this forum, I would have expected a bit more.
        FFS, read pklopp's blog, link above. Very well researched and a compelling argument against high feeding frequency
        Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

        Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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        • #34
          Everyone is different (to a degree). Following cookie cutter approaches to dieting doesnt help very much. Experiment! Work out what works for YOU. Maybe you dont go well with low carb and need to raise your intake.

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          • #35
            Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
            I am trying to lose weight in order to lower my bodyfat percentage before I start building muscle.
            Well just start building the muscle now then. It seems that building muscle comes a bit more easily when you are above a certain threshold of body fat. It's very tough to remain super lean and put on muscle at the same time. And being that you are female I would imagine this to be doubly true given how greatly women's hormones are effected by very low levels of body fat.

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            • #36
              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              Well just start building the muscle now then.
              I think this is excellent advice.

              At 5'1" and 104 you are not at all heavy for your height. Increasing your lean mass may be the only way to get rid of those last little bits of fat.
              50yo, 5'3"
              SW-195
              CW-125, part calorie counting, part transition to primal
              GW- Goals are no longer weight-related

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              • #37
                Originally posted by Stina1115 View Post
                <30 g carbs, ~ 70% fat and ~ 80 g protein a day, and I have never fat adapted
                That's still probably too much protein and carbs to get yourself into ketosis. Of course, it would depend on how much you weigh.
                there is no one size fits all. I eat 100g protein; 40-75 carbs and stay in ketosis. i struggle to stay under 3mmlo/l after a few days of 40

                Originally posted by peril View Post
                Your problem is that you eat too often, never giving yourself a chance to switch from fat storage to fat burning.
                I eat 4 times a day


                Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
                I have been on the standard keto diet for 4 weeks now (around 40-50 grams per day instead of <20) 2 weekends ago because I was eating in restaurants. I read that if you have too many carbs one time you have to start the induction phase all over again.
                sounds more like Atkins; there's no need to be so extreme especially when you have little actual fat. build up muscle as you go
                Last edited by CarbDodger; 07-20-2013, 05:04 AM.
                When I'd had enough of the grain and starched based 'diabetic eating for health' diet (eating for health, my ass!) my weight was 242.5 lbs. On starting primal- 18th April 2013 weight : 238.1.
                27th July 2013. weight after 100 days 136.9 weight lost 101.2lb ; that's 105.6lbs since I stopped the 'diabetic eating for health'
                new journal http://www.marksdailyapple.com/forum...ml#post1264082

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                • #38
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Well just start building the muscle now then. It seems that building muscle comes a bit more easily when you are above a certain threshold of body fat. It's very tough to remain super lean and put on muscle at the same time. And being that you are female I would imagine this to be doubly true given how greatly women's hormones are effected by very low levels of body fat.
                  My body fat is pretty high though (around 24%) even though I am light. (By the way underweight for my height would be under 98 lbs). I already spend 6 months gaining weight and trying to build muscle. I was in the same situation in December at 98 pounds and I was convinced to build muscle (bulk) first. The thing is, I don't think I really gained much muscle at all, despite gaining 12 pounds and lifting 2-3 times per week. I only added abut 10 pounds to all my lifts. I feel like my body looks the same as it did at the beginning, which I guess is a slight improvement since I am 6 pounds heavier than my starting weight. I don't know, I kind of feel like I am spinning my wheels. It seems like everything I try ends up not working the way it should. This keto adaption issue is just one of many problems I have faced throughout this process. I wanted to try a low carb diet to preserve any hard earned muscle I may have gained but now I feel like crap on this diet. I am just beyond frustrated. Sorry for the venting haha.

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                  • #39
                    Losing weight or "cutting" will not help you gain more muscle. Better definition, yes - but don't expect to be able to lift more because of that. How much do you lift, how do you lift? I used to lift 3-4 times a week and see slow results results. I dropped the weights completely and do over 60 pullups each morning - I see quick results. In a high carb diet, I gain more muscle and there's barely fat on me. I doubt ketosis is your holy grail.

                    p.s, picture yourself if you dare. You're probably more stressed than you should be.
                    Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

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                    • #40
                      Originally posted by peril View Post
                      FFS, read pklopp's blog, link above. Very well researched and a compelling argument against high feeding frequency
                      I'm not for or against high meal frequency. I typically eat 3 meals myself. However, to say that a high meal frequency is the reason someone is not losing fat (from a physiological standpoint) is simply incorrect. When calories and macronutrients are the same, it doesn't matter whether you eat 1 meal or 8 meals, it will make no difference (again, from a physiological standpoint).

                      I read through the blog a bit, and it's cool stuff, with some research and personal anecdote, but it still doesn't prove that meal frequency means diddly, whether it's high or low.
                      My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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                      • #41
                        Originally posted by CarbDodger View Post
                        there is no one size fits all. I eat 100g protein; 40-75 carbs and stay in ketosis. i struggle to stay under 3mmlo/l after a few days of 40
                        I'm not trying to imply that "one size fits all". What I was trying to point out, maybe unsuccessfully, is that if the two posters in this thread who are eating that amount of protein/carbs are struggling to get into ketosis on those macronutrient ratios, there's a good chance protein and/or carbs are too high.

                        In my *opinion*, they'd probably be more successful if they reduce these two macros, successfully achieve ketosis (confirm w blood ketone meter), and THEN add back in some carb and/or protein to find out what their unique thresholds are. Just my two cents, of course.

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                        • #42
                          Originally posted by Gilleh View Post
                          Losing weight or "cutting" will not help you gain more muscle. Better definition, yes - but don't expect to be able to lift more because of that. How much do you lift, how do you lift? I used to lift 3-4 times a week and see slow results results. I dropped the weights completely and do over 60 pullups each morning - I see quick results. In a high carb diet, I gain more muscle and there's barely fat on me. I doubt ketosis is your holy grail.

                          p.s, picture yourself if you dare. You're probably more stressed than you should be.
                          I am not trying to gain muscle right now, I am trying to maintain the muscle I have by lifting 3x per week and following a low carb diet. I know you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.

                          IMG_0646.jpg

                          IMG_0647.jpg
                          Last edited by Katie14; 07-20-2013, 05:11 PM.

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                          • #43
                            Originally posted by jakejoh10 View Post
                            I'm not for or against high meal frequency. I typically eat 3 meals myself. However, to say that a high meal frequency is the reason someone is not losing fat (from a physiological standpoint) is simply incorrect. When calories and macronutrients are the same, it doesn't matter whether you eat 1 meal or 8 meals, it will make no difference (again, from a physiological standpoint).

                            I read through the blog a bit, and it's cool stuff, with some research and personal anecdote, but it still doesn't prove that meal frequency means diddly, whether it's high or low.
                            JJ, I won't press you on this anymore. But pklopp uses science where you use pure opinion. I'll pay more attention to what he says.

                            What you do is undoubtedly good for healthy young men. Most of us are not healthy young men. I get annoyed with you because you are constantly giving advice without providing any backup. Simple ideas, such as "a calorie is a calorie" need to be tested by science. pklopp is doing that and providing significant counter examples. Our bodies are much too complex for simple ideas or broscience. If they weren't then the causes of and solutions to metabolic derangement would be obvious to all
                            Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

                            Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

                            Comment


                            • #44
                              Originally posted by Katie14 View Post
                              I am not trying to gain muscle right now, I am trying to maintain the muscle I have by lifting 3x per week and following a low carb diet. I know you cannot lose fat and gain muscle at the same time.
                              You will always get conflicting info here on these forums and they could all be right for different people...you have several different strategies to try. I would start with what Neckhammer has said in his posts.

                              When your fat-adapted your body can switch in and out of ketosis without you noticing the change for short periods...that's not the same as keto-adapted. You might consider trying to drop your strength training or the cardio stuff and just stick to one or the other for awhile instead of mixing them together.

                              Some people can lose fat and gain muscle doing IF with weight training but there is no guarantee it would work for you.

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                              • #45
                                Originally posted by peril View Post
                                JJ, I won't press you on this anymore. But pklopp uses science where you use pure opinion. I'll pay more attention to what he says.
                                All you have to do is ask, and I'll provide evidence.

                                Do you want evidence that meal frequency is insignificant in the big picture?

                                Meal frequency and energy balance. [Br J Nutr. 1997] - PubMed - NCBI
                                Meal Frequency and Energy Balance | BodyRecomposition - The Home of Lyle McDonald
                                Compared with nibbling, neithe... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 2001] - PubMed - NCBI
                                Highlighting the positive impact of increasing fe... [Forum Nutr. 2003] - PubMed - NCBI
                                Regular meal frequency creates more appropri... [Eur J Clin Nutr. 2004] - PubMed - NCBI
                                Acute appetite reduction assoc... [Int J Obes Relat Metab Disord. 1999] - PubMed - NCBI
                                PLOS ONE: Effects of Meal Frequency on Metabolic Profiles and Substrate Partitioning in Lean Healthy Males

                                (Some of these studies show some benefit to eating more frequently, contrary to what you're saying. Whether these benefits are truly significant or not remains to be seen.)

                                Most important factors: overall caloric intake, macronutrient totals, and adherence. Meal frequency is highly individual, and all things equal (calories and macronutrient intake), meal frequency is unimportant. Whether someone likes to eat six meals per day or 2, it doesn't matter. Whatever helps them to best adhere to the diet is the best way to eat.

                                Here's a great video by Eric Helms explaining the issues of nutrient timing and meal frequency (more directed at people who are interested in bodybuilding, but great information nonetheless):

                                https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6wk...SZ0q-zK5snR9BA

                                What you do is undoubtedly good for healthy young men. Most of us are not healthy young men.
                                It's nice that you assume I've always been healthy. This is incorrect. Yes, I'm young, but what in the world does that have to do with the validity of the information?

                                Are you saying that eating three times per day is only good for healthy young men? You've gotta be joking...

                                I get annoyed with you because you are constantly giving advice without providing any backup.
                                Really? Where? Everytime someone asks for evidence, I provide evidence. I don't point to someone's blog or construct ad hominems. If I'm wrong, I gladly admit it. But I provide evidence whenever someone asks.

                                If I'm constantly giving unsubstantiated advice, why didn't you call me out on it in the particular thread? I would have provided evidence to support my position.

                                Simple ideas, such as "a calorie is a calorie" need to be tested by science.
                                I never said a calorie is a calorie.

                                pklopp is doing that and providing significant counter examples. Our bodies are much too complex for simple ideas or broscience. If they weren't then the causes of and solutions to metabolic derangement would be obvious to all
                                That's great that he's providing counter examples, and it's great to show that there's more than one way to do things. However, saying that meal frequency is inhibiting someone's ability to lose fat is incorrect, and you have yet to provide evidence for that claim. Stop pointing to someone's blog. You seem to accuse me of not backing my claims with evidence, while you go on to not provide any yourself.

                                I don't have a problem with you or anyone on this forum, and argument is a great way to learn, so I hope we can keep this thing civil and focus on the information rather than personal potshots.
                                Last edited by jakejoh10; 07-20-2013, 06:15 PM.
                                My nutrition/fitness/critical thinking blog:

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