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  • #16
    Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Re: skin issue. Certainly could be leaky gut. My eczema went away when I went Primal and was100% gluten-free for a few months.

    Re: keto and gut health. Mine has never been better. Here's another viewpoint that posits that our gut bacteria are really out for themselves.
    Hyperlipid: Search results for Fiaf

    Re: D3 supplementation. I've read similar arguments, but the weight of evidence is not supportive of his thesis. See the Vitamin D Council website articles and links. I am happy to discuss this at length, but I hate typing, lol! You can pm me if you want to skype! My own n=1 is that sun exposure was insufficient for MY optimal health. Inflammatory conditions and autoimmune can benefit from therapeutic doses of D3.

    In any case, living in Ireland you are almost definitely D3 deficient, unless you holiday in warmer climes for a couple of months a year. Most of my nutrition clients are UK-based and ALL of them have tested as severely deficient. All of them have reported great health benefits after a few months of supplementation.
    Interesting. I might reconsider taking vitamin D. I vaguely remember reading--and warning, this may be completely wrong-- that the beneficial effect of vitamin D is that it reduces the activity of the immune system in some ways, thus lessening the aggressiveness of autoimmune conditions.

    edit: I should add that the link I posted was tweeted by Robb Wolf a few months ago (without commentary), which made me pay more attention to it. I wonder what his current stance on vitamin D is.

    Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
    Liver is your best bet for B vitamins, Vitamin A and K2. There is some tasty pâté available in your neck of the woods!

    Changing things up can be helpful for certain goals, like fat loss, but gut healing and brain healing might benefit from more consistency, IME. Not to discourage you from adding carbs, but gut health can take a couple of years to regain and there is no harm done in staying lc or vlc, if it is working for you.

    Nutrient density is important for gut healing, so liver, other organ meats, cheese, seafood, eggs and bone broth are really key.
    I have a big question, for you or for anyone else:

    Low carb diets have been implicated in high cortisol, e.g:

    "[A low-carb] diet will lead to an elevation of catabolic stress hormones, while [a high-carb diet] has been shown to increase thyroid hormone triiodothyronine (T3), increase testosterone, and decrease cortisol, the anti-hair, pro-misery stress hormone (here, here, here (PDF), & here)." (links in original document)

    Is this the case? Can it be mitigated by carbing up at the weekend?
    Last edited by Sabre; 07-16-2013, 07:10 AM.

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    • #17
      Frozen yogurt is your friend. Do homemade if you can.
      Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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      • #18
        Originally posted by Sabre View Post
        I have a big question, for you or for anyone else:
        Low carb diets have been implicated in high cortisol, e.g:

        "[A low-carb] diet will lead to an elevation of catabolic stress hormones, while [a high-carb diet] has been shown to increase thyroid hormone triiodothyronine (T3), increase testosterone, and decrease cortisol, the anti-hair, pro-misery stress hormone (here, here, here (PDF), & here)." (links in original document)

        Is this the case? Can it be mitigated by carbing up at the weekend?
        That is a Danny Roddy (i.e. a sockpuppet for Ray Peat) piece and I wouldn't take it seriously.
        Yes, going low carb is stressful for the primarily sugar burning metabolisms that SAD eaters have. This is why people get "carb flu" when in this transition. Once past that transition,however, there is no evidence that there is any stress involved. Living off of ketones is the most natural thing in the world.
        What is truly stressful long term is continuing with such an inflexible sugar based metabolism that needs to be fed every three hours to stave off hypoglycemia.
        P.S. Danny Roddy makes most of his money off of a book and blog called "Hair like a Fox" which sells snake oil to insecure balding males. He is a joke.

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        • #19
          I already addressed the cortisol issue in a previous evidence-based post. Did you not see it?
          The Ketogenic Diet for Health: Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis

          And here's a great evidence-based post about T3 and ketogenic diets:
          http://aworldlymonk.wordpress.com/20...a-false-alarm/
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          • #20
            Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
            What is truly stressful long term is continuing with such an inflexible sugar based metabolism that needs to be fed every three hours to stave off hypoglycemia.
            I don't know enough about cortisol to address that issue, but I just wanted to chime in about this part of your post.

            I eat a macro split of something like 60/25/15 C/P/F and a relatively high-sugar diet (with the sugar coming from tropical fruits, dates, berries, sweet potatoes, and occasional honey and molasses) and only eat 2 meals a day. I definitely don't need to eat every few hours, and I never get "crashes" from healthy, high-carb meals.

            It works for some people. Just sayin'.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
              That is a Danny Roddy (i.e. a sockpuppet for Ray Peat) piece and I wouldn't take it seriously.
              Yes, going low carb is stressful for the primarily sugar burning metabolisms that SAD eaters have. This is why people get "carb flu" when in this transition. Once past that transition,however, there is no evidence that there is any stress involved. Living off of ketones is the most natural thing in the world.
              What is truly stressful long term is continuing with such an inflexible sugar based metabolism that needs to be fed every three hours to stave off hypoglycemia.
              P.S. Danny Roddy makes most of his money off of a book and blog called "Hair like a Fox" which sells snake oil to insecure balding males. He is a joke.
              I find it troubling that when you see the name "Ray Peat" your brain immediately shuts off. I also find it troubling you think Danny Roddy makes his money off an ebook very few people know of. Most troubling at all, you gave it a review without reading it. I have not read it, I do not intend to, and therefore I won't review it.

              Gluconeogenesis uses cortisol to break amino acids down into the glucose your brain requires, which is substantial even in full ketosis. Low carbohydrate diets as a rule elevate stress hormones because stress hormones are what break down your lean tissues. Since fat isn't converted into glucose and your body has to break down muscle, connective tissue and organs to do so, you can make your call whether or not you call that a more "stressful" environment. Personally, I'd consider myself more stressed if I have to break down my organs for sugars instead of simply eating a potato or an apple.

              There is no such thing as a "sugar burner" or a "fat burner." THAT is a lie Mark Sisson uses to sell The Primal Blueprint, which he (unlike Danny Roddy) makes a complete living off of. You burn sugar and fat at the same time all the time. At no point does your body not burn fat and sugar. If at any point you are not burning fat, you are dead. The reason why people on the SAD generally feel awful if they don't regularly consume carbohydrate is because their mitochondria do not function properly and have low oxidative potential. They feel better on carbs than fats because carbohydrate provides more ATP per calorie than fat does. Glucose is a vastly superior fuel than fats - it is much more efficient - so when you take someone who can't metabolize energy efficiently (ironically, mostly due to too much polyunsaturated fats in their diet), they function much better on carbs since they get more bang for their buck per calorie.

              Now, when you take someone healthy and give them carbs - like an athlete - the ceiling is unlimited by comparison. As a person who sits on his butt 10 hours a day 5 days a week, works out for 4 lousy 1 hour sessions a week and stands a whopping 5'7" tall at a massive 143 lbs, I can tell you first hand the huge benefit I've felt by eating a more "Ray Peat" style diet - more carbs than fats, fats from red meats, eggs, coconut and dairy, very little nuts, no grains and I'm much more relaxed on sugar intake. I don't even buy coconut sugar anymore. Regular old brown sugar is A-OK with me in modest, non-hypercaloric quantities. Low carbohydrate dieting, even in maintenance and hypercaloric quantities, did not provide nearly the amount of energy or body heat as consuming a good amount of carbs. I had a 42 bpm resting heart rate before bed and I was always cold. Never again will I fall for the snake oil that is low carbohydrate dieting.
              Last edited by ChocoTaco369; 07-16-2013, 12:24 PM.
              Don't put your trust in anyone on this forum, including me. You are the key to your own success.

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              • #22
                Taquito, sweetie, let's not fight OK? It never ends well.

                I first heard of DR because of that book. Maybe that is the influence of the Derpster who is a loyal fanboy. I don't spend time on such dross either. It just calls into question other things he writes given that snake oil salesman aspect of his pitch.

                We have been around this mulberry bush too many times. You say stressful, I say not so if you are keto adapted.

                I said *primarily* sugar burner, not exclusively. Put that straw man away.

                Totally agree that mitochondrial function is key. I just think that ketosis is optimal for doing that. *For me*

                I don't doubt that your higher carb works *for you*. At least you stick with real foods unlike many of the sugar bees.

                And yes, everyone agrees PUFA's are bad. Why do you keep arguing this point?

                Sabre's case is different given his neurological issue. Don't generalize your plan to everyone.
                Last edited by Paleobird; 07-16-2013, 12:37 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Paleobird View Post
                  Totally agree that mitochondrial function is key. I just think that ketosis is optimal for doing that. *For me*
                  How much do you bench press?
                  Everything is bad for something - How do you feel today?

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Gilleh View Post
                    How much do you bench press?
                    Why is this relevant to the price of ice in Antarctica?

                    Ketosis is optimal for me because it allows me to remain seizure free on 25% less meds.

                    It also starves cancer cells while nourishing healthy cells. (look it up. real science.) Since I would rather not have a recurrence of the cancer that nearly killed me, this matters to me.

                    And I can and do climb mountains.

                    I'm also old enough to be your mother.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Gilleh View Post
                      How much do you bench press?
                      I'm really hoping this was "haha" stab at bro-science....

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
                        I already addressed the cortisol issue in a previous evidence-based post. Did you not see it?
                        The Ketogenic Diet for Health: Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis

                        And here's a great evidence-based post about T3 and ketogenic diets:
                        Low-Carb Diets and T3: A False Alarm | A Worldly Monk

                        Don't bother people with facts and evidence when what they clearly want is conjecture and opinion!

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                        • #27
                          From the above article Dragonfly posted about the cortisol/stress myth:
                          Gluconeogenesis

                          On a keto diet, your body makes the modest amount of glucose it needs out of protein in a process called gluconeogenesis (GNG). There is a widely-held misconception that for GNG to occur, there must be high levels of the stress hormone cortisol in the blood. This mistake comes out of the fact that cortisol stimulates GNG. Therefore, it is reasoned, whenever you rely on GNG, your body has to produce and circulate more cortisol. This, however, is like arguing that since a reliable way to make people laugh is to tickle them, that every time you hear someone laughing it means they are being tickled. It turns out there are other ways to make people laugh, and there are other hormones that induce GNG.

                          The usual hormone to stimulate GNG is glucagon. Glucagon is produced when blood sugar gets low, and its primary function is to restore blood sugar to optimal levels. Cortisol levels rise when blood sugar reaches an even lower level. That is, the blood sugar threshold for cortisol production (55 mg/dL) is lower than the threshold for glucagon (65 mg/dL) ˛. This lower threshold could be reached if GNG was somehow obstructed. There are some rare disorders that prevent GNG, such as Fructose 1,6-Diphosphatase Deficiency or Glycogen Storage Disease, but in most people, GNG is a straightforward, unimpeded process.
                          I though the tickle analogy was great.

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Dragonfly View Post
                            I already addressed the cortisol issue in a previous evidence-based post. Did you not see it?
                            The Ketogenic Diet for Health: Ketogenic Diets, Cortisol, and Stress: Part I — Gluconeogenesis

                            And here's a great evidence-based post about T3 and ketogenic diets:
                            Low-Carb Diets and T3: A False Alarm | A Worldly Monk
                            I did, I read that first article and followed up on the authors' opinions in other websites and comments they made to other blogs--I'm not convinced they're confident that they're fully correct. Someone suggested high protein might be the cause of increased cortisol and the guy replied "hmmm I never thought of that".

                            Paul Jaminet warns against very low carb diets.

                            I'm sticking with low carb for the moment but I want to be certain I have the best, most unbiased data. That said, the links provided in this thread are good and reassuring. Why the fuck is the myth so widespread? Nonsense beliefs based on untruths should wither away as proper data come in.
                            Last edited by Sabre; 07-17-2013, 03:14 PM.

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                            • #29
                              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                              Don't bother people with facts and evidence when what they clearly want is conjecture and opinion!
                              No kidding!
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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by Sabre View Post
                                I did, I read that first article and followed up on the authors' opinions in other websites and comments they made to other blogs--I'm not convinced they're confident that they're fully correct. Someone suggested high protein might be the cause of increased cortisol and the guy replied "hmmm I never thought of that".

                                Paul Jaminet warns against very low carb diets.

                                I'm sticking with low carb for the moment but I want to be certain I have the best, most unbiased data. That said, the links provided in this thread are good and reassuring. Why the fuck is the myth so widespread? Nonsense beliefs based on untruths should wither away as proper data come in.
                                Unfortunately, most people take their n=1 as evidence, including Paul Jaminet. For example, he ate a low protein, low calorie, low carb diet and got scurvy. He chose to believe that the issue was carbs and has convinced a lot of people of the so-called danger of "glucose deficiency" based purely on speculation, from what I have gleaned from his writings.

                                And from the many stories I have read on this and other forums, many folk who go vlc are already nutrient-depleted from previous crap diets, and/or eat too few calories, and/or aren't eating offal or seafood, and/or have a pre-existing thyroid condition ( likely caused by their high carb SAD diet, pre-Primal), and/or don't balance their electrolytes. So I am not surprised at the number of stories. Oh, and I forgot to mention the chronic cardio over-exercisers who shouldn't really be vlc in the first place.
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