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  • #16
    thanks!
    “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
    Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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    • #17
      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
      Oh, found my own reply on that HG tribe with some great info!

      Don't be like them unhealthy hunter/gatherer tribes that get the majority of their calories from meat and nuts!

      http://www.faculty.fairfield.edu/dcr...lee_chap_4.pdf

      1365 calories a day from the Monongo nut (which the go to great effort to collect)
      690 calories from meat
      300 calories from plant

      Approximately 60% animal and nut by weight to 40% plant..... Interesting little read.

      Of course the caloric density complaint is a double edge sword. For HG's caloric density is a necessity in food choice. This may not be so for us, but I would question any presumption of these foods being unhealthy based on a reductionistic account of PUFA levels alone.
      Their nuts are harvested and eaten freshly. The nuts most of us buy have been shelled, heated, processed, shippedhundreds and thousands of miles, and stored at warm temps and exposure to countless parasites and bacteria. Not every region has so many nuts available. If I lived in a location that fresh nuts were in abundance and the biggest source of food, I'd eat them too. But we live different lives from these tribes, and our gene expressions reflect that. Not to mention epigenetic and environmental factors.
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      “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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      • #18
        Point is 44% PUFA in a natural form with the normal constituents (vitamin e and other minerals), and NO negative effect. No increased incidence of heart disease, diabetes,....ect. \

        If you want to blame PUFA for all the diseases of civilization this is the black swan. Does it mean that you should not pay attention to how a food item is grown, harvested, or shipped? Of course not. We obviously look at that for every other Primal item in the fridge, but if your (not you specifically) contention is that PUFA causes some sort of oxidative metabolic stress JUST BECAUSE its PUFA then your gonna have to explain tribes like this and traditional shore societies whose intake is quite high. I just don't see it.

        Then again the combined oxidative stress of both fructose AND pufa on the liver is a different story. Perhaps this is the real reason that Peat don't like PUFA. Its not that PUFA is bad, its just that he loves sugar so much he had to get rid of it
        Last edited by Neckhammer; 07-10-2013, 06:47 PM.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          I would say the fact that certain HG tribes eat more than 60% of their calories in the form of nuts is a fine example that nuts are a safe and healthy food.

          From a hunter gather perspective nuts make perfect sense.

          The hating on anything nut or seed just cause of some PUFA eliminates a great deal of minerals from the paleo plate. Magnesium, manganese, selenium, vitamin E, and several others are prevalent in nuts. In fact just about all the things people on paleo find that they have to supplement can be found in good quantity by including a variety of nuts and seeds.
          Sure you could get those from nuts, but you could get them from many other sources as well. For example, consider the nutrition data for chocolate (Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Candies, chocolate, dark, 70-85% cacao solids) and oysters (Nutrition Facts and Analysis for Mollusks, oyster, eastern, canned).

          Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
          We obviously look at that for every other Primal item in the fridge, but if your (not you specifically) contention is that PUFA causes some sort of oxidative metabolic stress JUST BECAUSE its PUFA then your gonna have to explain tribes like this and traditional shore societies. I just don't see it.
          PUFA concerns by strict Peatarians or whatever are overblown, sure, but I don't see any reason to eat PUFA either. And I generally wouldn't recommend other people eat much PUFA either. Obviously they can do whatever they want though.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by F.Fellini View Post
            PUFA concerns by strict Peatarians or whatever are overblown, sure, but I don't see any reason to eat PUFA either. And I generally wouldn't recommend other people eat much PUFA either. Obviously they can do whatever they want though.
            I wouldn't eat "PUFA" for the sake of getting more PUFA in my diet, but I definitely don't avoid foods that are/have been a regular contributor to human caloric load for tens of thousands of years just cause they also happen to contain PUFA's. See the difference?

            Besides OP was asking for rationale reasons why some of us are not scared to death of eating PUFA's. So I'm just sharing my particular thoughts on the matter.

            I don't use nut flours or bake any faux paleo crap, but I do use nut butters, eat fatty fish, and eat plenty of variety of nuts and seeds on a daily basis. So I have thought it out and I believe that the benefits outweigh any perceived draw backs.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
              I wouldn't eat "PUFA" for the sake of getting more PUFA in my diet, but I definitely don't avoid foods that are/have been a regular contributor to human caloric load for tens of thousands of years just cause they also happen to contain PUFA's. See the difference?

              Besides OP was asking for rationale reasons why some of us are not scared to death of eating PUFA's. So I'm just sharing my particular thoughts on the matter.

              I don't use nut flours or bake any faux paleo crap, but I do use nut butters, eat fatty fish, and eat plenty of variety of nuts and seeds on a daily basis. So I fit the group OP was asking to pipe in with opinion.
              Sounds reasonable. I happen to think other foods are better (red meat > fish, chocolate > nuts, etc.), but I realize there's no need to be as anal as I am with my own diet.

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              • #22
                There are foods whose negative consequences are highly theoretical. No one observes harmful effects in epidemiological studies, and in laboratory studies such foods improve the health of those who partake of them. Nuts are one of these. Studies do not correlate nut eating with harm. If you want to experience true paranoia, I suggest bringing up peanuts. They are sort of a nut, but they are also a legume, something else that doesn't show as harmful in population studies.

                If you eat wheat, something which causes real harm to many people who are unaware it is doing so, but are afraid of peanuts, which only harm those who know they are allergic, your understanding of risk assessment may be lacking.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                  Then again the combined oxidative stress of both fructose AND pufa on the liver is a different story. Perhaps this is the real reason that Peat don't like PUFA. Its not that PUFA is bad, its just that he loves sugar so much he had to get rid of it
                  LOL. Maaaaybeee! I think fruit + sugar > any heavy source of PUFA. Just my O though. I'll never be perfectly Peat or Primal or whatever, but I really do prefer saturated fat food sources more than known PUFA sources. Beef over chicken; chocolate over nuts; butter over avocado; cheese over anything.
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                  “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                  • #24
                    You know it may very well be that you have to choose one or the other. I think me and Derp had a discussion that involved posting studies back and forth quite a while back, and that was my general take away. Most showed PUFA and sugar together were not so good. Fructose alone... meh not so bad. Pufa without high amounts of sugar.... again not so bad.

                    So if your high carb paleo... watch your pufa. If your high fat paleo.... watch your fructose. Seems a reasonable hypothesis.

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                      You know it may very well be that you have to choose one or the other. I think me and Derp had a discussion that involved posting studies back and forth quite a while back, and that was my general take away. Most showed PUFA and sugar together were not so good. Fructose alone... meh not so bad. Pufa without high amounts of sugar.... again not so bad.

                      So if your high carb paleo... watch your pufa. If your high fat paleo.... watch your fructose. Seems a reasonable hypothesis.
                      Yes, I have been thinking this for a while and it is what I try to say to my family members: pick your bet and stick to it. Despite the derision in these parts, people who go on extremely low-fat perfect CW diets do have very good outcomes. It's the person who goes down the middle of the road that gets squished. As that fantastic global food consumption pattern map someone posted the other day showed- America wasn't singularly high carb or singularly high fat, what it was as a singular uniqueness was high both.

                      ETA: I get that you are talking about specific kinds of fat with specific kinds of sugar which is not the same as what I was saying, but it kind of goes together... Pick one or the other.
                      Last edited by loafingcactus; 07-10-2013, 08:01 PM.
                      “In God we trust; all others must bring data.” W. Edwards Deming
                      Blogging at http://loafingcactus.com

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                        You know it may very well be that you have to choose one or the other. I think me and Derp had a discussion that involved posting studies back and forth quite a while back, and that was my general take away. Most showed PUFA and sugar together were not so good. Fructose alone... meh not so bad. Pufa without high amounts of sugar.... again not so bad.

                        So if your high carb paleo... watch your pufa. If your high fat paleo.... watch your fructose. Seems a reasonable hypothesis.
                        I can buy into this hypothesis. Would also explain the chronic illnesses in the US if it were true to some degree. I'd wager on it.
                        | My (food) Blog | Follow me on Facebook | Pinterest | Twitter |

                        “It does not take a majority to prevail, but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men.” - Samuel Adams

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                        • #27
                          I'm generally a fan of eating whole foods, but I must have my numbers wrong here. From what I have pieced together it looks like if you eat a cup of walnuts you get just under 40 grams of pufa compared to about 7 grams from a tablespoon of soybean oil. I find that really surprising!! I must have something wrong.

                          Anyone?
                          Using low lectin/nightshade free primal to control autoimmune arthritis. (And lost 50 lbs along the way )

                          http://www.krispin.com/lectin.html

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by Neckhammer View Post
                            You know it may very well be that you have to choose one or the other. I think me and Derp had a discussion that involved posting studies back and forth quite a while back, and that was my general take away. Most showed PUFA and sugar together were not so good. Fructose alone... meh not so bad. Pufa without high amounts of sugar.... again not so bad.

                            So if your high carb paleo... watch your pufa. If your high fat paleo.... watch your fructose. Seems a reasonable hypothesis.
                            Hey good spotting, sounds about right.

                            On a side note (I don't want to derail the thread here) I have noticed a similar anecdotal effect with cal restricting and carb restriction.
                            Go low carb and eat lots or go med/high carb with a calorie restriction and generally you'll do good. Add LC and a cal restriction together and ya got metabolic fireworks.

                            Just what I have noticed is all


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                            Weight lost in 4 months - 29kg (64 lbs)

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                            • #29
                              Homo sapiens started eating fish in large quantities 50,000 years ago, and it coincided with some serious increase in brain size. The studies of hunter/gatherer societies also show significant dependence on fish. Since the point is doing what our ancestors did, I personally eat fish every day.

                              We're talking about weird grain-oil PUFAs right?

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                              • #30
                                Originally posted by F.Fellini View Post
                                Not trying to challenge you or anything, but why eat nuts? Fish I can totally understand, and I eat avocados, too, but nuts just seem like a weird choice to me. I mean you have not only the PUFA but phytic acid and other toxins to worry about, plus it's hard (at least for me) to find quality nuts in the first place. And they're not cheap. And some nuts seem hard to digest properly. And chocolate or cheese tastes better IMO and has just as many or more nutrients plus a much better fatty acid profile.

                                By all means eat nuts if you want. I was just curious about this.
                                OK, here it is for you:
                                - a full cup of unsalted macadamia nuts
                                - a full cup of fat coconut milk and dried shredded coconut
                                - a full cup of chocolate nibs, sweetened with xylitol or some raw cacao powder to taste + xylitol to taste
                                - 1 to 2 tsp of vanilla extract
                                - a pinch of salt
                                - 2 egg yolks

                                Dump all this in a powerful blender and blend until smooth and creamy. Enjoy right away or cool it down some in your fridge.

                                Talking about nuts, you may want to read something interesting about almonds:
                                The day almonds became interesting. | The poor, misunderstood calorie
                                Almonds: nutrition’s coolest drupe, Op. 89 | The poor, misunderstood calorie

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