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Are we really supposed to eat animals? Fruit seems a more natural choice

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  • #76
    Originally posted by Gorbag View Post
    No error here, I am living at 0-0-2 degree south, pretty close to the equator line and in Ecuador, and even if we have plenty of fruit and vegetables, there are almost no vegetarians here! At least I don't know any vegetarians... Humans thrives as omnivores, with plenty of animal protein in their diet..
    Oh shit. I actually agree with Gorbag. World coming to an e
    The Champagne of Beards

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Kegas76 View Post
      Why do they all have hard boiled eggs on their lapel?
      I didn't even notice it until you pointed it out; I think it's a subliminal message.
      Life is death. We all take turns. It's sacred to eat during our turn and be eaten when our turn is over. RichMahogany.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        I have read allot of primal articles that say it would be ridiculous to consider primal man ate allot of carbs. But it seems to me that primal man would have eaten mostly fruit (also some nuts/seeds, leafy greens, and yes meat,fish). I was hoping someone could show me the flaw in my following logic: Primal man would be in some warm place (where humans are meant to be) where there are lots of fruit trees and he'd eat lots of fruit because it is easy to get to and available in abundance. It's nicely packaged, satisfies his taste buds, doesn't need to be cooked, prepared or seasoned. Then he'd take a crap and disperse the seeds and more fruit trees would grow. It seems to me like fruit is the only thing that wants to be eaten and we have a symbiotic relationship with it.
        This is exactly right if we go far enough back in our evolutionary history. Far enough back that we're not actually 'human', that is.

        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        I know primal man also ate meat, but could this not be considered human error?
        Nope. Look at apes like chimpanzees. Is it human error that they go bonkers for a bit of meat to eat?

        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        Like moving to cold climates? Money? War? Slavery? My point is, us humans have not always gotten it right (but in some instances there have been a few who have realized the error and fought to make great change).
        You seem to assume that eating meat is wrong. Why do you think that?

        p.s. Money is just a means to exchange goods and services. It's not inherently morally wrong either.
        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        Maybe we're supposed to use our unique higher consciousness as humans to evolve and see that we do not need to kill animals and burden our planet in order to be healthy.
        You use the word 'evolve', but I am not certain what you mean by that. The reason we have evolved the big brain we have is precisely because we made the switch from fruit to meat. More nutitious energy dense food, that requires a relatively smaller digestive tract, thus letting a bigger and more biologically costly brain be possible.

        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        If one eats adequate calories in fruits, vegetables, nuts, and seeds there is no need to eat meat. We do not need all that protein. I use to stand behind the logic that there are essential fatty acids and essential amino acids, but no essential carbs.
        Correct.
        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        But this is because the human body is so resilient that it will make glucose from protein if you don't give it enough sugar. Why not just give it (natural) sugar?
        I agree.
        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
        It will produce ketones to fuel the brain if you follow a very high fat/super low carb diet in order to not die. Why not just give it the natural sugar it needs to function? Fruit seems to be the perfect human food and a plant based diet can provide us with all the essential nutrients we need to thrive, so why not let the animals live their lives?
        There's nothing wrong with eating carbs. But there's also nothing wrong with eating high quality protein sources. We can do both. You seem to be arguing that it's an either/or scenario.
        Last edited by magicmerl; 07-09-2013, 02:24 PM.
        Disclaimer: I eat 'meat and vegetables' ala Primal, although I don't agree with the carb curve. I like Perfect Health Diet and WAPF Lactofermentation a lot.

        Griff's cholesterol primer
        5,000 Cal Fat <> 5,000 Cal Carbs
        Winterbike: What I eat every day is what other people eat to treat themselves.
        TQP: I find for me that nutrition is much more important than what I do in the gym.
        bloodorchid is always right

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        • #79
          I never said that the morals and ethics of primal man and modern man are the same. I simply questioned the assumption that primal humans wouldn't give a second thought to eating and killing animals. The fact that reverence for and rituals surrounding the killing and eating of animals present in contemporary hunter-gatherers exist tells me primal man would have also thought moralistically about eating meat. When you know how to live in the environment (i.e. when and where to get food sustainably) every meal isn't boiled down to if I don't eat this now I or my family will die. There is time to think about what you are doing.
          Primal Since September 2010
          Beginning Weight = 250lb
          Current Weight = 197lb
          Goal Weight = Whatever weight I am when I can do 30 pull ups without taking a break...

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          • #80
            When you know how to live in the environment (i.e. when and where to get food sustainably) every meal isn't boiled down to if I don't eat this now I or my family will die. There is time to think about what you are doing. I don't have the book with me (Native American Wisdom) so I can't identify which Native American tribe kept the practice of leaving the bottom third of fruit bearing plants for the smaller animals, the top third for the flying animals and the middle third for the humans and other long-legged animals. Tradition, rituals, and myths of the tribe were the solution for the moral dilemma of "should I eat all the berries or would I, the local environment, and the world at large be better served if I left some berries on the bush?"
            Primal Since September 2010
            Beginning Weight = 250lb
            Current Weight = 197lb
            Goal Weight = Whatever weight I am when I can do 30 pull ups without taking a break...

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            • #81
              Originally posted by NickBall View Post
              When you know how to live in the environment (i.e. when and where to get food sustainably) every meal isn't boiled down to if I don't eat this now I or my family will die. There is time to think about what you are doing. I don't have the book with me (Native American Wisdom) so I can't identify which Native American tribe kept the practice of leaving the bottom third of fruit bearing plants for the smaller animals, the top third for the flying animals and the middle third for the humans and other long-legged animals. Tradition, rituals, and myths of the tribe were the solution for the moral dilemma of "should I eat all the berries or would I, the local environment, and the world at large be better served if I left some berries on the bush?"
              so they fatten them up before the kill by leaving a bit for them to eat? hmmm smart tribes.

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              • #82
                Originally posted by NickBall View Post
                I can't identify which Native American tribe kept the practice of leaving the bottom third of fruit bearing plants for the smaller animals, the top third for the flying animals and the middle third for the humans and other long-legged animals.
                So there was enough to go around. Apparently so much that we were able to leave two-thirds of it behind? Didn't native Americans eat meat? What are we even talking about?
                The above should be viewed as complete and utter nonsense.

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                • #83
                  Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
                  I'm saying that in primitive times man would have been surrounded by fruit....not now. Why wouldn't we have? We would have lived in climates that were conducive for it and fruit would have been the easiest and most delightful thing for us to eat.
                  We evolved in grasslands, in the Savannah. The Savannah is very dry much of the year with dry dead grass, sparse trees that may bear nuts part of the year and lots of herds of animals. Rivers and lakes would have had fish.

                  Along the Equator, fruit is plentiful all year long.
                  The Sahara desert is near the equator. I don't think fruit is plentiful there.

                  Also, why does every primitive culture in the world, equatorial or not, eat meat and fish?
                  Female, 5'3", 50, Max squat: 202.5lbs. Max deadlift: 225 x 3.

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                  • #84
                    Originally posted by sbhikes View Post
                    Also, why does every primitive culture in the world, equatorial or not, eat meat and fish?
                    Because evil?
                    The above should be viewed as complete and utter nonsense.

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                    • #85
                      Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
                      This is not true. Of course there are people smarter then you that follow a vegan diet. Also, there are smart people (with human sized brains) that follow both diets.
                      You missed my point completely. Our large brains would never have evolved on a vegan diet. Just not possible
                      Four years Primal with influences from Jaminet & Shanahan and a focus on being anti-inflammatory. Using Primal to treat CVD and prevent stents from blocking free of drugs.

                      Eat creatures nose-to-tail (animal, fowl, fish, crustacea, molluscs), a large variety of vegetables (raw, cooked and fermented, including safe starches), dairy (cheese & yoghurt), occasional fruit, cocoa, turmeric & red wine

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                      • #86
                        Originally posted by PrimalFish View Post
                        I have not tried an all fruit (and vegetable) diet longer then three days, but recently switched from a primal diet (which I was following 2.5 years) to a low-fat vegan diet (been following for 6 months). The initial reason for the change was that I felt I was too reliant on coffee (not primal?), and I had the desire to not eat animals if it was possible to do so and still be healthy. Anyways I've never felt better in my life. My energy is through the roof and I can actually train again for performance without having to worry about training to long. If I train less, I eat less. I am leaner and more vascular. lWhen I was following primal I looked very soft.
                        Originally posted by Sweet Leilani View Post
                        Cool, glad you found a way of eating that makes you feel awesome, more power to you. It's what we're all reaching for. Just don't condemn others to justify your way of eating. You're eating the way you eat because it makes you feel good! End of story. No other justification needed. Leave the crap about higher/lower levels of consciousness out of it. No one is a better or worse person because of the way they eat!!
                        The issue with the vegan diet, and even more so fruitarian and raw veganism, is that feeling this way is not necessarily due to well-being. As the level of malnourishment rises, people feel more and more energized and attribute this to be a sign of increasing health. It is not. This is the fasting response, your body telling you to get out and kill something now, before it is too late.

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                        • #87
                          Because I disagreed with one portion of your comment doesn't mean that I agree with the original poster. I was just criticizing your claim that primal man wouldn't have moralized their eating. The berries story illustrates that food wasn't simply a matter of eat it now or die but something much more complex than that. That complexity and the many moral dilemmas it creates was solved by thinking, moral, ethical human beings then just as it is now. I never claimed Native Americans didn't eat meat; read my post again. I fully support eating meat. I eat a lot of meat and other animal products.
                          Primal Since September 2010
                          Beginning Weight = 250lb
                          Current Weight = 197lb
                          Goal Weight = Whatever weight I am when I can do 30 pull ups without taking a break...

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                          • #88
                            Not exactly my point but there was certainly an advantage to not eating everything as it left something for other animals to eat and if the opportunity presented itself, for you to eat them. Of course you are subject to being eaten as well...so it balances out well if you do it right.
                            Primal Since September 2010
                            Beginning Weight = 250lb
                            Current Weight = 197lb
                            Goal Weight = Whatever weight I am when I can do 30 pull ups without taking a break...

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                            • #89
                              The fact that paleolithic humans were mentally capable of moralizing does not mean they ever saw killing and eating animals as a moral dilemma. That is a modernist concept. The eternal circle of existence would be more likely. Things exist to eat other things, or to be eaten. We are what we are. Reinvention of ourselves as something outside what is understood to be the natural order of things (or redefining the natural order of things) is a new concept.

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                              • #90
                                Originally posted by eKatherine View Post
                                The fact that paleolithic humans were mentally capable of moralizing does not mean they ever saw killing and eating animals as a moral dilemma. That is a modernist concept. The eternal circle of existence would be more likely. Things exist to eat other things, or to be eaten. We are what we are. Reinvention of ourselves as something outside what is understood to be the natural order of things (or redefining the natural order of things) is a new concept.
                                I know that it is impossible to prove that something didn't exist so I won't ask you to prove primal man didn't moralize their eating but the fact that a single human out there got to that point (when exactly that happened for the first time is also impossible to prove) and that contemporary hunter-gatherers clearly moralized their eating to some degree makes me think that primal humans did the same thing to varying degrees. I agree that things exist to eat other things and that those things exist to be eaten. But humans have always made much more of life than this. Rules about what to eat when to eat, what was good to eat what was evil are found in all cultures, primitive or modern.
                                Primal Since September 2010
                                Beginning Weight = 250lb
                                Current Weight = 197lb
                                Goal Weight = Whatever weight I am when I can do 30 pull ups without taking a break...

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